Workplace Laws and Rights

[XRated]

Hi guys I'm just trying to find some information regarding Laws and Rights of the workplace in Victoria.

First of all, I apologise for the really long post.

Just a quick run-down:

I have been employed through my (previous) company for four years - the first half as a casual, then a supervisor, and then as an Assistant Manager part-time (three months probation then three months contracted).

To cut a long-story short, I came into work on Monday and my poor-excuse of a manager tells me, "I think it's time you left." Obviously startled, I asked for the reason behind this sudden decision... Well he couldn't really give me a straight answer besides, "poor performance." Bare in mind, I have not in all my four years working there even received a written warning for anything and I was the longest serving staff member.

I told him, "I can't leave this place after four years without you giving me any decent reason or an example of what I did (or shouldn't have) done." Nup, he couldn't give me anything. I expressed how I felt betrayed because I am his most loyal employee (in my opinion :P) and that he was being petty and had ulterior motives/reasons behind it all. I gave up after he said, "now, I will pay you for your remainding shifts (a week's worth) and your leave entitlements," which is stuff all anyway. I was looking for new work in the previous week but this is beside the point.

My good friend who still works there informed me that the manager told him a day or two ago that he won't be paying me and if I come in the store to call the police! : Yes he's a bit of an angry nut-case, but I haven't done anything to him or the shitty store.

This is my biggest concern and I am hoping he was just hot-headed. Otherwise I will have to stuff around seeking legal advice.

Anyway, I could write a document on his poor managing skills but I'll try not to (like leaving a live electrical point HANGING out of the wall next the the sink where the staff fill up a mop bucket each night). There's just another thing that got me today - he has cut himself short and in turn this affects all the employees there. Most of which are now 15-17 year-old females (when he came to the business three years ago he pretty much axed 80% of the males and hired young females - another story in itself).

I found out he is making a 16 year-old girl work a split shift next Saturday - something like 1pm-6pm and then 8pm-12am. I don't like seeing innocent people getting shafted, especially young people who can easily be manipulated and intimidated by managers. Oh, he also has rostered on the night before 8pm-12am). So what are her rights? What's the law regarding this? Or is he just abusing and taking advantage of employees and can get away with it?

I also understand the fact that some people will think I am ****ing and moaning because I got the arse and just trying to be a nuisance, well it's partially true but I am concerned for the younger more naive staff and think it's time he had a wake-up call.

Again, apologies for the long-winded post and thanks if you bothered to read it all :P

[XR Martin]

What is the business? Sounds like a Fast food or a supermarket ?
Check the SDA website, they have the awards on there.

[congo3sr]

you might want to contact your union,if you are a member.If your not a member,contact them anyway they may help you,as it sounds like you have some OH+S problems in the store that should be dealt with now!Worksafe would love to hear about that powerpoint thing,is your boss a licenced sparky? The Vic government has a website,I think it is "your rights at work",might be worth looking into if you have the time,Not knowing who you work for is a little hard,but I,m betting your manager is trying to look good to his bosses,by cutting the wages bill,if this is the case,they probably dont know whats going on,so a call to somebody higher up the food chain with your concerns might just work too.
hope this helps a little bit.
good luck mate.

p.s If all else fails............. :

[Outbackjack]

Surely this kind of treatment of people is simply not possible with our new "work choices" , surley.

[XRated]

Yeah cheers guys.

Apparently he's telling the staff to call the police like I said previously. And why? I can only laugh - I was "rude" when he "terminated" me because I was asking for a reason for my dismissal! I think I handled it rather well considering the circumstances and I could have made a very big scene and been a whole deal worse but I chose to remain calm. I'm sure the police will be thrilled to make the effort to come down for no particular reason. I feel like he is genuinely scared about something and trying to scare me away. I can't quite pin-point it.

I will probably make a call to his "boss" early this week and have a calm and rational word stating my concerns. I'd rather I get paid what I am entitled to, than not to get paid and have the stress and financial hassles of getting a lawyer to intervene.

Unfortunately we're not covered by any union.

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Surely this kind of treatment of people is simply not possible with our new "work choices" , surley.

It’s true, if you are fewer than 100 employees you have no rights to fight for an unfair dismissal, unless you earn $85,000 PA or over….
Off you go no redundancy nothing, no one to appeal to....sadly its happening to a lot of older workers being replaced by younger casual contract labour..
This is going on, union memberships are growing in numbers people are worried about there job security..


A new edition to the Vic Government website its very popular..
link here:
http://www.business.vic.gov.au/BUSVI...=PC_61267.html

[4Vman]

The flip side to all this for me is a can't find decent staff... and its a real issue.
Its probably because they've all got jobs.
Seriously there is a MASSIVE shortage of staff in the woodworking, metalworking and associated industries for factroy workers and wood machinists.
Anyone in SE Melb looking for work in the woodworking industry feel free to PM me.

[MO]

Originally Posted by XRated

Yeah cheers guys.

Apparently he's telling the staff to call the police like I said previously. And why? I can only laugh - I was "rude" when he "terminated" me because I was asking for a reason for my dismissal! I think I handled it rather well considering the circumstances and I could have made a very big scene and been a whole deal worse but I chose to remain calm. I'm sure the police will be thrilled to make the effort to come down for no particular reason. I feel like he is genuinely scared about something and trying to scare me away. I can't quite pin-point it.

I will probably make a call to his "boss" early this week and have a calm and rational word stating my concerns. I'd rather I get paid what I am entitled to, than not to get paid and have the stress and financial hassles of getting a lawyer to intervene.

Unfortunately we're not covered by any union.

YOU are its called the miscellanous workers union..now to be fair it would be of great help if you would tell us the industry.

this will help to point you in the right direction..if your working life is going to be spent following whatever industry it is..JOIN the union that covers it.

[XRated]

The store I worked at was an arcade games venue.

Does anyone know the actual law regarding being paid out? i.e. do part-timers have to get two weeks notice like full-time employees? I've been through quite a few sites but most of them just mention full-time employees need two weeks notice before being dismissed but nothing specific about part-time employees. My contract doesn't mention it either - except under the three month probation period it says, I, or my employer must give one week's notice before resigning/being dismissed.

Thanks.

[INJECTED_250]

id say youre prob screwed.... Dont worrie little this is how little johny and his mates want it.. simple.. just burn the place down :>

[MO]

Originally Posted by XRated

The store I worked at was an arcade games venue.

Does anyone know the actual law regarding being paid out? i.e. do part-timers have to get two weeks notice like full-time employees? I've been through quite a few sites but most of them just mention full-time employees need two weeks notice before being dismissed but nothing specific about part-time employees. My contract doesn't mention it either - except under the three month probation period it says, I, or my employer must give one week's notice before resigning/being dismissed.

Thanks.

Try getting in touch with the MWU personally and tell them and they will advise you of your rights....please everyone whatever your employed in join the union.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by XRated

The store I worked at was an arcade games venue.

Does anyone know the actual law regarding being paid out? i.e. do part-timers have to get two weeks notice like full-time employees? I've been through quite a few sites but most of them just mention full-time employees need two weeks notice before being dismissed but nothing specific about part-time employees. My contract doesn't mention it either - except under the three month probation period it says, I, or my employer must give one week's notice before resigning/being dismissed.

Thanks.

Have you signed any agreements in the past few months? If not, i would imagine you are covered by the relevant award. Might take a bit of sleuthing but find out what award you are covered by (the miscellaneous workers union might be able to name it for you?).

You a casual? Unfortunately there's not much protection offered to casuals (there never was, workchoices or otherwise) or much offered in the way of redundancy payments.

So youve got your contract at hand? Good work. Seriously, go over it ten times if you have to, just see if there's anything that talks to the issue at hand. Some of the members on here, despite their desires to politicise the query - really do know their IR stuff (a few union reps in our midst i think??) and might be able to have a look for you?

It sounds like the boss is really freaked out about something??? Weird.

[GXL078]

Name and shame and organise a boycott.

[BAFalconXT]

They dont have to give you notice, but they have to pay you your entitlements. Unions have NO POWER over employers now, so unless you take them to court you just have to hope they pay you. I am on workcover, and I am owed about $1000, some from Christmas last year, the union hasnt been able to get them to pay me. Your best option would be to call you local Labor MP or Premiers office, if they dont actually pay you.
SHAME on everyone who voted Liberal last Federal Election! :

[Outbackjack]

It seems a shame. We have a country riding high on the resources boom. Why did we need these horrible IR laws. I said months ago that no-one was immune, even those that said the new laws were akin to the second coming. It would appear that I was right. God help this country if (when) the resources boom goes belly up. What else do we have??

[BAFalconXT]

One more step to becoming like America, where people earn $5 an hour and rely on tips to survive. I hardly think lowering our wages and conditions to become more competitive with asian sweat shops is the answer. Increasing peoples education so that we can sell our services and ideas to the rest of the world is the only way to keep Australia great.
By the way, you should be paid two weeks pay plus any holiday leave.

[XRated]

I just made a call to Job Watch who were very helpful. Basically if I'm not paid I am still covered through the Industrial Relations Commission and someone else covers the annual leave etc. I'll have to clarify if it gets that far.

I tried calling his boss who initially interviewed me four years ago but he isn't working today. I am going to e-mail him because he puts through all the pays and I will call him mid-week if I get no reply (I'm seeing a lawyer tomorrow but for other purposes and will get some advice from them too).

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by XRated

I just made a call to Job Watch who were very helpful. Basically if I'm not paid I am still covered through the Industrial Relations Commission and someone else covers the annual leave etc. I'll have to clarify if it gets that far.

Exactly, you're still covered by unlawful dismissal laws (as opposed to unfair dismissal) and he's still liable under the IRC laws to pay you your entitlements... Speak to a solicitor and get some proper advice, (you can still persue your entitlements through VCat the same as before), rather than listen to the Govt bashers...

[AshMan]

Mate I feel for you.

I had just taken on a mechanic apprenticeship in July of this year. Passed 3 month probation, things going really well, learning alot etc etc.

Got told last week that a workshop is closing down, myself and another mechanic got the ****.

I'm working for a group training company, and they haven't got any work.

Now I face the prospect of going trough christmas with no job and no money...

Mate, sorry to steal your thread, but all I can say is good luck, and take the bastard for all he's worth! Even better, get him sacked and take his job!

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

It seems a shame. We have a country riding high on the resources boom. Why did we need these horrible IR laws. I said months ago that no-one was immune, even those that said the new laws were akin to the second coming. It would appear that I was right. God help this country if (when) the resources boom goes belly up. What else do we have??

I was hoping it wouldnt come to this. Heck, i was happy to play nice so long as you lot were Haha, i of course i kid mate. It would be a shame to disrupt the uneasy truce which we appear to have found!

My short answer is that the resource boom wont last forever. Im sure you've got a better grip on that concept than i do given the role resources play in your neck of the woods.

When the rain day comes knocking, we'll have a workplace that can cope with this. Yes, people will probably lose jobs. Some might start earning less. But the operation will remain viable, because no one will have a gun to the employer's head saying "thou shalt not let people go".

In direct response to "what else do we have?"... well, we'll have a viable comapny employing 700 people... instead of a bankrupt company (with creditors trying to get their hands on employee benefits) and 1000 people that woke up to find the company was dead. An extreme example of course, but hopefully it demonstrates my point.

We've had it good. For a loooooong time (anyone remember the last time we had 2 consecutive quarters of negative economic growth?). We need to position ourselves - and our workforce - to be more dynamic.

That is to say, yeah - the 'old' system wouldnt have failed under a boom. Would have done a fine job, but what about when things turn downward? When you've offered an unsustainable level of job security?

That's an honest repsonse and i'd like to hear your more on your thoughts (if we can leave the politics aside and focus on the point you've raised).

Which makes for a good segway....

SHAME on everyone who voted Liberal last Federal Election!

Im usually fairly reserved in my comments and indeed encourage others to behave similarly so that a thread and its discussions might be nurtured.

But I'll bet even your left wing bretheren shuddered when they read that idiotic comment of yours.

Seriously mate. 10 points. Full marks. Congratulations on bringing the whole place down a notch. No, not because your political persuasions but because you would say something SO INHERENTLY STUPID.

But of course we 'shameful' people who collectively represent about half the bloody population of Australia know nothing do we mate? Yes - im sure you know better than each and every one of those millions of people whom you are shaming.

I'll thank you in advance for having the thread closed. Top work!

the union hasnt been able to get them to pay me.

Surely not? Surely the holier-than-thou folks down at the union wouldnt throw a request into a que and let it fall into the cracks of beaurocracy? Maybe they're a bit busy deciding which fleet car they'll charge to the membership? I mean, the business they run is sooo transparent and the benefits they offer to members are soooo obvious!

Dammit, i knew i should have asked the chick i know who gets to drive around the ACTU-funded VY commodore when her dad's not at work!!!

/end sarcasm.

See, i can take cheap shots as well.

BTW i'd like to thank 4vman for addressing the question with a very helpful response. Granted, such advice is not nearly as exciting as the doom and gloom story coming from the left, but hopefully it gives Xrated a good shot in the arm to know that he is protected by law.

[nugget378]

Maybe you can get some advice here..
Or at least a referral to where you can get some help..
http://workers.labor.net.au/latest/

To those that say unions do this the unions do that,YOU the membership are the union.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

I was hoping it wouldnt come to this. Heck, i was happy to play nice so long as you lot were Haha, i of course i kid mate. It would be a shame to disrupt the uneasy truce which we appear to have found!

My short answer is that the resource boom wont last forever. Im sure you've got a better grip on that concept than i do given the role resources play in your neck of the woods.

When the rain day comes knocking, we'll have a workplace that can cope with this. Yes, people will probably lose jobs. Some might start earning less. But the operation will remain viable, because no one will have a gun to the employer's head saying "thou shalt not let people go".

In direct response to "what else do we have?"... well, we'll have a viable comapny employing 700 people... instead of a bankrupt company (with creditors trying to get their hands on employee benefits) and 1000 people that woke up to find the company was dead. An extreme example of course, but hopefully it demonstrates my point.

We've had it good. For a loooooong time (anyone remember the last time we had 2 consecutive quarters of negative economic growth?). We need to position ourselves - and our workforce - to be more dynamic.

That is to say, yeah - the 'old' system wouldnt have failed under a boom. Would have done a fine job, but what about when things turn downward? When you've offered an unsustainable level of job security?

That's an honest repsonse and i'd like to hear your more on your thoughts (if we can leave the politics aside and focus on the point you've raised).

Which makes for a good segway....



Im usually fairly reserved in my comments and indeed encourage others to behave similarly so that a thread and its discussions might be nurtured.

But I'll bet even your left wing bretheren shuddered when they read that idiotic comment of yours.

Seriously mate. 10 points. Full marks. Congratulations on bringing the whole place down a notch. No, not because your political persuasions but because you would say something SO INHERENTLY STUPID.

But of course we 'shameful' people who collectively represent about half the bloody population of Australia know nothing do we mate? Yes - im sure you know better than each and every one of those millions of people whom you are shaming.

I'll thank you in advance for having the thread closed. Top work!



Surely not? Surely the holier-than-thou folks down at the union wouldnt throw a request into a que and let it fall into the cracks of beaurocracy? Maybe they're a bit busy deciding which fleet car they'll charge to the membership? I mean, the business they run is sooo transparent and the benefits they offer to members are soooo obvious!

Dammit, i knew i should have asked the chick i know who gets to drive around the ACTU-funded VY commodore when her dad's not at work!!!

/end sarcasm.

See, i can take cheap shots as well.

BTW i'd like to thank 4vman for addressing the question with a very helpful response. Granted, such advice is not nearly as exciting as the doom and gloom story coming from the left, but hopefully it gives Xrated a good shot in the arm to know that he is protected by law.

Thanks. Yes, i think "over reaction" can cloud the better judgement of many, and i agree with the perspective of the future, the old system was like a ratchet, it only wound in one direction, which means if things get tougher or more competitive we cant "lean up" or "wind back" to remain viable, no point as you put it "holding a gun" to the employers head if the bicky jar is empty...
Id rather see people offered the opportunity to take legitimatly substantiated pay cuts to keep their jobs and keep the company doors open than see them loose their jobs out of greed.
Ironically the "down side" if you want to take a negative view on things of the "new" system for me is its actually driven wages up because of overall skill and staff shortages in the woodworking industry, who'd have thought hey...

I think unions have their place in some workplaces and some industry's, i see their role though as mediators and workplace advisors on a group and individual basis working with the employer and employee to find harmony, not the Monopolising ransom holders they used to be....

To finish on my offer to interview XRated as per my PM message and earlier post for a position in my company is still open, you have my number should you wish to take it up, if not that's fine, the best advice i can give you is focus on moving forward and finding a good job with a good employer, if necessary employ a solicitor to recoup your entitlements, but as for the unfair dismissal stuff and revenge etc let it go, it will cause you stress, anxiety, and de-focus you on what's important, that's moving forward!

[XRated]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

To finish on my offer to interview XRated as per my PM message and earlier post for a position in my company is still open, you have my number should you wish to take it up, if not that's fine, the best advice i can give you is focus on moving forward and finding a good job with a good employer, if necessary employ a solicitor to recoup your entitlements, but as for the unfair dismissal stuff and revenge etc let it go, it will cause you stress, anxiety, and de-focus you on what's important, that's moving forward!

Yes mate I will give you a call shortly. I have every intention of moving forward and finding a rewarding job with a reasonable employer. Today was spent ringing several places and trying to calculate what I'm entitled to. It's quite a pain in the backside but I guess this is part of his game.

I was never intending to get anything for unfair dismissal because I know it wouldn't be viable and not worth the stress even if I did have a case. Like I said, I'm just after what's rightfully mine.

There's quite a lot to learn regarding laws and your rights. I've just taken it for granted for so long I guess.

Thanks so far guys.
:

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Thanks. Yes, i think "over reaction" can cloud the better judgement of many, and i agree with the perspective of the future, the old system was like a ratchet, it only wound in one direction, which means if things get tougher or more competitive we cant "lean up" or "wind back" to remain viable, no point as you put it "holding a gun" to the employers head if the bicky jar is empty...
Id rather see people offered the opportunity to take legitimatly substantiated pay cuts to keep their jobs and keep the company doors open than see them loose their jobs out of greed.
Ironically the "down side" if you want to take a negative view on things of the "new" system for me is its actually driven wages up because of overall skill and staff shortages in the woodworking industry, who'd have thought hey...

I think unions have their place in some workplaces and some industry's, i see their role though as mediators and workplace advisors on a group and individual basis working with the employer and employee to find harmony, not the Monopolising ransom holders they used to be....

Funny thing is, companies are driving wages down where ever possible even though we keep hearing how marvelous things are out the industrial arena. Most people will not be fooled. If people terms and conditions (T&C's)are being whittled away during times of economic growth, what will happen when things turn sour. There will be nothing to protect working class people that are living month to month......
I can give an example.... me. I always thought that I was relatively safe with the T&C's that I work with. I am one of twelve people in Australia qualified to do my job. We have one more guy that if all tests passed will be available at the end of this year. Now you would reckon that the people that I work for would desperatly want to keep a smooth ship running. We do not work for profit. But I am looking at possible income cuts of around 70K pa. All directly due to Johnies IR laws. I am not too concerned as the people that I work with are not either. There will simply be 100% resignation rate and the problems that this will present the people that are work for will be un surmountable. They will have to come to us with their hat in their hand.
This not what I want to happen. If these type of issues can effect me, what chance do other people with no qualifications have.
Now if the wood working industry is struggling for qualified workers, this begs the question, what has the wood working industry done to attract and train prospective new talent?? A two way street needs to run two ways, does it not?
But I do agree with your statement about unions, names like Halfpenny, have been a disaster for Australian unions. They are only now starting to recover. But on the other side of the fence, militant unions have brought to the fore many work place saftey issues, they have kept pay rates moving. I wonder where Australia would be now with out unions. Irish child labourers with English over lords presents itself as an image...... There is a half way point, in this issue, and John howards ideology does not biuld a road to it. It will divide this country along many yet to be travelled lines. Most people have not yet been affected by the new laws. This will only start to hit after the next federal election. That is when companies and the coalition will go for it. If they win that is. That is not a fore gone conclusion.
Peace all.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Funny thing is, companies are driving wages down where ever possible even though we keep hearing how marvelous things are out the industrial arena.

The basic fundamental objective of any company is to make as much profit as possible for its shareholders, in doing so it would be "irresponsible" of any director to not seek the run the tightest ship possible, that means keeping costs, of which wages are possibly the highest % of any companies outgoing expenses under control. To balance that though If companies treat their staff badly they can and will leave, therefore companies WANT to have happy staff because it means more productivity and quality output!

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Now if the wood working industry is struggling for qualified workers, this begs the question, what has the wood working industry done to attract and train prospective new talent?? A two way street needs to run two ways, does it not?

Ive invested close to a million dollars (and put my balls on the line doing so) in the latest CNC machining centres at work, all of my staff receive on the job training as well as the offer of further third party training under the trainee-ship scheme which results in certificates in manufacturing etc, they're able to work with some of the most state of the art equipment in the industry, im providing employment for upto 7 people, that's what im doing to attract staff!
The problem im faced with now is there simply isnt anyone out there with the appropriate work ethic applying for positions.
The new laws as i see it have allowed companies to shuffle their workforces and absorb the best workers, in many industries that means competition between employers for good staff which ultimately means wages go up..

[BAFalconXT]

Who do you think has fought to increase your wages in the past? : Maybe some people dont understand that all companies have always been able to pay employees more than the minimum and put them on a different contract. It has nothing to do with the new laws.
The lowest paid and less educated people need the most assistance and help to protect their rights. Should people have to pay to see a lawyer and try to sue a company when they do not follow agreements? With AWAs workers rights have already been eaten away eg. I only get 1 week sick pay a year and only about 4 public holidays per year.
Anyone that is in favour of these new laws does not understand how the economy works.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by BAFalconXT

Who do you think has fought to increase your wages in the past? : Maybe some people dont understand that all companies have always been able to pay employees more than the minimum and put them on a different contract. It has nothing to do with the new laws.
The lowest paid and less educated people need the most assistance and help to protect their rights. Should people have to pay to see a lawyer and try to sue a company when they do not follow agreements? With AWAs workers rights have already been eaten away eg. I only get 1 week sick pay a year and only about 4 public holidays per year.
Anyone that is in favour of these new laws does not understand how the economy works.

Unless you suffer some form of disability you generally have the same opportunity to gain education as anyone else, people who study and work hard generally get rewarded in a democratic society, those who choose not to generally struggle.
The only assistance i think the "lowest paid and less educated" as you put it need is access to alternative deployment training or life or career coaching....
Everyone has a choice and a chance in life, make the most of it while you can and unless you've been delt a perminant disadvantage in life dont rely on others for handouts, if your current position doesnt pay well enough for your lifestyle then you need to find a better paying job, either by way of promotion through demonstrating excellent work or get some training to increase your employability etc...

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

But I am looking at possible income cuts of around 70K pa. All directly due to Johnies IR laws. I am not too concerned as the people that I work with are not either. There will simply be 100% resignation rate and the problems that this will present the people that are work for will be un surmountable. They will have to come to us with their hat in their hand.

Im sure it comes as no suprise to hear that i wouldnt go for the 'standover' tactic like this...

But hey - that's the market force in action right there my friend. Your boss wants you guys, he has to pay. Supply and demand moving their goalposts to find common ground. Isnt the concept of a market just beautiful?? Good thing your pay rates are not restricted by industrial reform. Heck, it does so much to support my views im almost blissful.

Good luck with the negotiations BTW... remind me never to play poker against you!!

There is a half way point, in this issue, and John howards ideology does not biuld a road to it.

You see that's the point of conjecture. Right there. I think we'd both agree that balance needs to be found. However, our different philosophies will lead us to believe the middle ground is not where the other party claims it is.

I dont think there's any way to resolve this difference in opinion. You think the pendulum should swing in the worker's favour regardless of impact on the employer... i think the pendulum should favour the employer, which in turn means more jobs for more people - at a price which (as you have demonstrated in your personal circumstances) the market decides.

Who says the worker should set the pay? Who says the employer should set the pay? Let the market find the middle ground i say, it's the only fair way to do it. Yes - we need to be fair to employers, regardless of how 'big and mean' they appear.

[BAFalconXT]

Not everyone has the same opportunities. Many peoples parents dont earn very much or maybe on the dole, that gives them a huge disadvantage. Lots of kids are forced out of home from a young age and have to find work rather than go to university or get a trade. Training costs money and/or time off work. Many people who are well off will not be able to afford to hire a lawyer to protect their rights, let alone the less well off. These laws open the flood gates for the minimum wages to fall, forcing working people below the poverty line.
Unemployment rates may "look" good, but real unemployment rate is at least 15%. This includes people who are not looking for work and people who are "under employed". You only have to work something like 1 hour a week to be considered employed. John Howard has now introduced that anyone that can work more than 15 hours per week who is disabled can no longer claim disability benefits.
Rather than creating an underclass, John Howard should spend some of his $17 billion surplus helping people to stay in education and get more skills.
Maybe next election, next to each candidate they should write how much money they are willing to work for and people can add that into account when voting.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by BAFalconXT

Anyone that is in favour of these new laws does not understand how the economy works.

That's a big call my friend. Nah, i must admit - i dont know much about economics, i only studied it for 4 years. Yes yes, i know in your mind my "textbook" learnings have no applicability. Well, stiff.

But if you want to talk economics, let's do it. Simple as far as im concerned.

Productivity is the key word. No, not making people work for less. But fixing wage increases to productivity increases (this can be said of any resource within our economy). This will allow the production frontier of the economy to expand, meaning that we can continue economic growth WITHOUT placing inflationary pressure on the economy (whereas the 'old' system of basically, get as much $$$ as the union can, regardless of productivity). Im sure you're familiar with aggregate supply/demand in the context of gross domestic product and inflationary pressure.

It's strange.. the self proclaimed hero of the working class has done so much to worsen the perceived plight. Prices go up, unions demand pay rises... which means... ta da... prices continue to go up! Ok, another wage increase to offset those rising prices... prices rise again. All of a sudden you've upped the wage 15% and people still have the same buying power as they did prior to the wage rise.

FYI i get 4 weeks leave and unlimited sick leave under my AWA. Oooh, such a nasty little document isnt it??? The point i make - please cut down on the broad generalisations you make based on your very limited experience.

If i could get rid of 2 weeks of that leave and have it added to my salary, i would. Hang on... maybe i will at the next negotiation. I dont need/want 4 weeks a year and up until now ive been forced to have them. I have no family that i need to spend time with, thankfully the system no longer throws me into the same bucket as those who do want 4 weeks/year.

All the flexibility we have now must turn your stomach inside out.