Japan Moves to Fast-Track Cars Powered by Hydrogen Fuel Cells

[Wretched]

TOKYO — Japan’s government and the country’s top carmakers, including Toyota Motor, are joining forces to bet big that they can speed up the arrival of the fuel-cell era.

The still-costly and complex fuel cell technology uses hydrogen as fuel and could greatly curb automotive pollution.

Prime Minister Shinzo Abe’s growth strategy, announced on Tuesday, included a call for subsidies and tax breaks for buyers of fuel-cell vehicles, relaxed curbs on hydrogen fuel stations and other steps under a road map to promote hydrogen energy.

That will bolster plans by Toyota, the world’s biggest carmaker, and Honda Motor, another Japanese giant, to start selling fuel-cell vehicles in 2015.
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On Wednesday, Toyota said that it planned to start selling its first fuel-cell vehicle for the mass market by the end of March 2015 in Japan for about 7 million yen, or $68,700. The Japanese automaker also said that it was preparing to start selling a fuel-cell vehicle around the summer of 2015 in the United States and Europe.

With two of Japan’s three biggest automakers going all in on fuel cells, the country’s long-term future as an automotive powerhouse could now hinge largely on the success of what they hope will be an important technology in the next few decades.

The auto sector carries special significance in Japan, providing nearly one in 11 jobs and about one-fifth of its manufacturing output. It is also one of the few big industries where Japan remains at the pinnacle of global competition, after losing much of its edge in electronics and elsewhere.

Japan’s governing party is pushing for ample subsidies and tax breaks for consumers to bring the cost of a fuel-cell car down to about $20,000 by 2025. The government is also aiming to create 100 hydrogen fuel stations by the end of March 2016 in urban areas where the vehicles will be sold initially.

“To stay globally competitive, Japan cannot afford to lag behind in this area,” said Yuriko Koike, a former environment minister who heads a group of ruling party lawmakers advocating hydrogen energy.

A fuel-cell vehicle, running on electricity from cells that combine hydrogen with oxygen, emits only water vapor and heat. Hydrogen fuel production from hydrocarbons emits some carbon dioxide, although Japan hopes to put carbon-free production into effect by 2040.

Hydrogen vehicles can run five times longer than battery-operated electric cars, and their tanks can be filled in just a few minutes, compared with recharging times from 30 minutes up to several hours for electric cars.

The challenges for fuel cell cars nevertheless remain daunting and growth could be slow, especially given the expense of building up an infrastructure of hydrogen fuel stations and the likely reliance on subsidies until costs come down.

“Even after 10 years, fuel-cell cars are likely to be less than 10 percent of the Japanese market,” said Ryuichiro Inoue, a professor at Tokyo City University and an expert in the auto industry. “This isn’t a strategy to talk about for the next 10 years, but for the next 20 to 30 years.”
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Even Toyota expects only tens of thousands of fuel-cell cars to be sold annually a decade from now, as the technology will need time to gain traction.

The government’s commitment to hydrogen vehicles in its growth strategy, however, shows how far the technology has come since Toyota and Honda began leasing fuel-cell-powered cars in Japan 12 years ago. Japan had set out bold predictions, later abandoned as unrealistic, of putting five million fuel cell cars on the road by 2020.

Engineers have since overcome a variety of technological challenges, including cold-weather ignition glitches caused by water’s freezing and the need to reduce loadings of platinum, the metal that fuel cells use as a catalyst.

Rivals like Hyundai Motor of South Korea and Daimler of Germany are also producing fuel-cell vehicles, but Japanese officials say that they believe the country will have an advantage after the United Nations adopted many of its proposals for global fuel-cell safety standards last June. This means it can avoid major changes to fuel-cell specifications for exports, keeping costs low.

Toyota, which astounded rivals 17 years ago by developing the Prius hybrid car in barely two years and then swallowed initial losses to establish its dominance in the segment, is confident in its fuel cells prospects.

“When we first introduced the Prius, there was little way we could make a profit and our vision was longer term, for the second- and third-generation models,” the Toyota managing officer Satoshi Ogiso told Reuters in March. “Unless you are willing to accept losses initially, it’s not possible to increase sales.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/26/bu...ells.html?_r=0

This in my opinion is where AU lags behind the rest of the world.
We're simply not innovative enough to justify many of our industries.
Yes, hydrogen is a big risk but with all the measures Japan has in place it could really work. Their government is willing to spend big on moving forward.
I really wished Australia would do the same.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by Wretched

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/26/bu...ells.html?_r=0

This in my opinion is where AU lags behind the rest of the world.
We're simply not innovative enough to justify many of our industries.
Yes, hydrogen is a big risk but with all the measures Japan has in place it could really work. Their government is willing to spend big on moving forward.
I really wished Australia would do the same.

Agreed,
In so many ways we should be leaders not the followers we are generally...

JP

[chriso89]

It is sad to say it because i'm a big advocate for Australian made goods for Australians - which most Australians themselves could not give two ***** about, but yes i agree.

The problem here is that our government is too resource focused they don't seem to want to think about the jobs needed in the country after the resource boom is done, seems funny to say these things when i myself am in the oil, gas and mining sector.

makes you wonder how long we could hold out if war ever broke out again because with no factories or manufacturing industry to be commandeered in order to produce goods for the military (i.e vehicles, jets, technologies) we probably would not last too long even with an armed force as skilled as ours.

I have worked both in Japan and more recently South Korea and honestly Japan is Leaps ahead of Korea in the Vehicle Technologies sector - I'm pretty sure Hyundai/Kia and Samsung (Samsung - Renault) to a lesser extent, just reverse engineer Japanese and european technologies - Korea is still very much a developing country where as Japan is a well Established world leader in many things.

The Japanese are just so meticulous in every single way Imagineabe and they have this sense of pride drummed into them from such a young age - it does'nt matter if you're a street sweeper over there or a neurosurgeon you take pride in the role you have to play in your community and you do your job to the absolute best of your abilities no matter what it is - this is amazing to experience first hand, it truly is, it was the first thing i noticed over did'nt see a single cab with a dent or a scratch when i was in Tokyo.

My point is that unfortunately even though we have the brilliant minds in this country to develop technologies we do not have a Government willing to invest adequately to make any real strides (Labor or Liberal) and with the cost of education about to skyrocket in this country the people that can afford the degrees may not necessarily be the people who can use them to their fullest.

I hope to see this country as a manufacturing power house again one day because we cannot rely on Construction and resources as our main economy forever.

Chris. (sorry for the rant lol)

[graphicgoose]

About time hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles got pushed! This will be a much better long term solution than batteries/electric powered vehicles...in my opinion anyway...

[simon varley]

makes sense for a country with practically no oil reserves themselves to try and become energy self-sufficient

[GASWAGON]

Almost makes cars like the Prius look like old technology.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by graphicgoose

About time hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles got pushed! This will be a much better long term solution than batteries/electric powered vehicles...in my opinion anyway...

Why not cars powered by giant hamster wheels? Makes more sense.

Hydrogen fuel cells are NOT new technology, Noah probably had them on the Ark. They are a novelty, much like running a light bulb off a potato.
For small applications where weight is super critical, cost is immaterial, and combustion is too dangerous, they are a better option that old school batteries.
NONE of those apply to cars, and not sure how they stack up against modern Lithium batteries.

It MAY make sense in Japan for the following reasons:

Japan uses nuclear power to generate electricity and therefore Hydrogen, and that is the only scenario under which Hydrogen makes sense. Otherwise Hydrogen is produced by burning natural gas.

Japanese cities have heavily concentrated air-polution, so anything that removes exhaust gases from the city is a huge bonus.

Japanese drivers will rarely travel more than a few miles from their nearest filling station, so the severely limited range won't be a problem

Japanese seem to be happy to live with dangerous technologies. No way I'd want to live next door to a Hydrogen filling station.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Why not cars powered by giant hamster wheels? Makes more sense.

Hydrogen fuel cells are NOT new technology, Noah probably had them on the Ark. They are a novelty, much like running a light bulb off a potato.
For small applications where weight is super critical, cost is immaterial, and combustion is too dangerous, they are a better option that old school batteries.
NONE of those apply to cars, and not sure how they stack up against modern Lithium batteries.

It MAY make sense in Japan for the following reasons:

Japan uses nuclear power to generate electricity and therefore Hydrogen, and that is the only scenario under which Hydrogen makes sense. Otherwise Hydrogen is produced by burning natural gas.

Japanese cities have heavily concentrated air-polution, so anything that removes exhaust gases from the city is a huge bonus.

Japanese drivers will rarely travel more than a few miles from their nearest filling station, so the severely limited range won't be a problem

Japanese seem to be happy to live with dangerous technologies. No way I'd want to live next door to a Hydrogen filling station.

first off LPG powers your car so can hydrogen, not so small.

nickel metal hydride batterys are better than lithium, but patent owned by oil company.

and do you have natural gas piped to your house, if so why worry about a hydrogen filling station.

[timeout]

Look at the home fuel cell that runs off piped no. I'm sure the core could be used for a car.

[zilo]

Hilarious thread by people who have absolutely,positively no idea how fuel cells work.

I nearly fell off my chair with this one.....

Originally Posted by graphicgoose

About time hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles got pushed! This will be a much better long term solution than batteries/electric powered vehicles...in my opinion anyway...

Just what do you think fuel cells power is used for?

[graphicgoose]

Originally Posted by zilo

Hilarious thread by people who have absolutely,positively no idea how fuel cells work.

I nearly fell off my chair with this one.....



Just what do you think fuel cells power is used for?

Please, sir, bestow your wisdom upon me(us), rather than belittling my post with no explanation as to your reasoning...

[Windsor220]

Would have thought electric was better for long term.

[Franco Cozzo]

I'll have mine powered by diesel or unleaded until battery technology picks up more thanks.

[dragons90]

Originally Posted by graphicgoose

Please, sir, bestow your wisdom upon me(us), rather than belittling my post with no explanation as to your reasoning...

A Hydrogen fuel cell works like a battery creating electricity when hydrogen and oxygen are joined in it creating water. So it is still a electric car just not powered by a battery as such.

[graphicgoose]

The point I was getting at wasn't the way the engine works, more the functionality behind using it as a day to day solution. If Hydrogen fuel cells were the go, and it become widespread like petrol then if you get low you can simply pull into a servo and top up. Battery powered vehicles are a long way off a 5 minute top up at a local recharge station. So from a pure convenience perspective I'd rather a Hydrogen fuel cell powered car than an electric battery powered car.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by graphicgoose

The point I was getting at wasn't the way the engine works, more the functionality behind using it as a day to day solution. If Hydrogen fuel cells were the go, and it become widespread like petrol then if you get low you can simply pull into a servo and top up. Battery powered vehicles are a long way off a 5 minute top up at a local recharge station. So from a pure convenience perspective I'd rather a Hydrogen fuel cell powered car than an electric battery powered car.

errr...hydrogen fuel cell cars are electricbattery cars with a clip in the boot to bolt a swap and go hydrogen bottle.

So...still an electric battery powered car.

But exactly what you would be happy with...5 minute fill up at the local "swap and go" like the barbie bottle...



What does the hydrogen do? imagine when you charge a battery...the acid boils a bit and hydrogen gas is released into the atmosphere....and plates charge up.

Crudely put...if you pump hydrogen gas back into the electrolyte you recharge the battery through the back door.

Get it? It's still the same electric car....


Of course there is another way...burn the hydrogen...but the bang would be heard a hundred kilometres away when things go pear shaped.

[graphicgoose]

Originally Posted by zilo

errr...hydrogen fuel cell cars are electricbattery cars with a clip in the boot to bolt a swap and go hydrogen bottle.

So...still an electric battery powered car.

But exactly what you would be happy with...5 minute fill up at the local "swap and go" like the barbie bottle...



What does the hydrogen do? imagine when you charge a battery...the acid boils a bit and hydrogen gas is released into the atmosphere....and plates charge up.

Crudely put...if you pump hydrogen gas back into the electrolyte you recharge the battery through the back door.

Get it? It's still the same electric car....


Of course there is another way...burn the hydrogen...but the bang would be heard a hundred kilometres away when things go pear shaped.

I wasn't intending to insult your knowledge of this topic or anything btw, as you clearly know a lot more about it all than i do (I'm happy enough to admit that). My initial intent was purely to, indirectly, say that I can't see plug in to charge electric cars becoming as mainstream as petrol cars are currently until they can be as convenient. I'm all for advancement in engine technology and alternatives to petrol IC. It'll be interesting to see where it all goes in the near future.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by graphicgoose

I wasn't intending to insult your knowledge of this topic or anything btw, as you clearly know a lot more about it all than i do (I'm happy enough to admit that). My initial intent was purely to, indirectly, say that I can't see plug in to charge electric cars becoming as mainstream as petrol cars are currently until they can be as convenient. I'm all for advancement in engine technology and alternatives to petrol IC. It'll be interesting to see where it all goes in the near future.

LOL...cheers mate no offence intended either...but the point is the electric car will come along quickly in one form or another.
There's just the little itty bitty problem of charge time.....

We will see some seriously high powered cars...cant wait.

[graphicgoose]

The electric bikes they're throwing around the Isle of Man TT nowadays are crazy fast! The lack of gears still makes me feel a bit uneasy though...

[dragons90]

Originally Posted by zilo

errr...hydrogen fuel cell cars are electricbattery cars with a clip in the boot to bolt a swap and go hydrogen bottle.

So...still an electric battery powered car.

But exactly what you would be happy with...5 minute fill up at the local "swap and go" like the barbie bottle...

In the US they've got Hydrogen refueling bowsers.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by dragons90

In the US they've got Hydrogen refueling bowsers.

saw a doco on foxtel the other night...

Japanese motorcycle manufacturer has an electric bike that has a swap and go hydrogen cylinder that plugs in under the seat...good for about 150ks....in urban traffic.

they are setting up swap and go's in existing petrol stations.

[mik]

An interesting clip on a different type of fuel cell, not for cars, but perhaps it could be altered for cars ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shkFDPI6kGE ....... 14 minute clip.

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by chriso89

It is sad to say it because i'm a big advocate for Australian made goods for Australians - which most Australians themselves could not give two ***** about, but yes i agree.

Yeah most don't care.

Today at local farmers markets there were a group of people who had a petition to keep jobs in Newcastle. Railway rolling stock is one of the things that used to be made in Australia, but now they get them from China because it's cheaper. The lack of quality shows because the first time I saw 74 Chinese made wagons loaded, the side buckled on every single one. So we will see how long these things last before they are screwed.
Anyway with this petition today I was standing near them talking with my mate for about half an hour and more people refused to sign than people who did sign.
"Sign petition to keep jobs in Newcastle"
"No thanks" and they keep walking.
I know it's just a petition, but bloody hell it's not hard to at least pretend you care and sign a damn piece of paper.

[mik]

Originally Posted by Ben73

Yeah most don't care.

Today at local farmers markets there were a group of people who had a petition to keep jobs in Newcastle. Railway rolling stock is one of the things that used to be made in Australia, but now they get them from China because it's cheaper. The lack of quality shows because the first time I saw 74 Chinese made wagons loaded, the side buckled on every single one. So we will see how long these things last before they are screwed.
Anyway with this petition today I was standing near them talking with my mate for about half an hour and more people refused to sign than people who did sign.
"Sign petition to keep jobs in Newcastle"
"No thanks" and they keep walking.
I know it's just a petition, but bloody hell it's not hard to at least pretend you care and sign a damn piece of paper.

I`m sorry to say Ben, imo that is half the problem, the big majority of people in oz these days are either too lazy or just dont give a toss, the Australia of 2014 is not the Australia of the 60s or before,
i think also we are a less patriotic country than we once where, but that is the way the cookie crumbles, this is Australia of 2014.

[Davehoos]

most people in Newcastle remember or know people that worked for industries.

I think if you got a petition to ban industry in the hunter valley you have more hope.

Remember people using farmers markets tend to be educated and worldly.

P/S there is more cash in repairs and reworks for substandard machinery.
There is no cash in reinventing the wheel.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by graphicgoose

Battery powered vehicles are a long way off a 5 minute top up at a local recharge station.

No, battery swapping technology has been around for yonks.
Problem is batteries still suck

Originally Posted by graphicgoose

So from a pure convenience perspective

Filling a decent sized hydrogen bottle wouldn't be quick

Originally Posted by graphicgoose

I'd rather a Hydrogen fuel cell powered car than an electric battery powered car.

Modern batteries are far less likely to explode with enough force to put the remains of the hydrogen tank through your brain.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by burnz

first off LPG powers your car so can hydrogen, not so small.

Sense is making not, hmm

Originally Posted by burnz

nickel metal hydride batterys are better than lithium, but patent owned by oil company.

Really? I thought it was the Jewish Bankers?
Does alfoil still make the best hat?

Originally Posted by burnz

and do you have natural gas piped to your house,

I also have water plumbed into my house, what's your point?

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Sense is making not, hmm

storage, I thought that was obvious.

Really? I thought it was the Jewish Bankers?
Does alfoil still make the best hat?

sarcasm, the low brow response.

I also have water plumbed into my house, what's your point?

actually it was your point...
ps: garages also have water plumbed in.

[dragons90]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

No, battery swapping technology has been around for yonks.

The problem with that is it would only work in metro areas and what happens when a new model comes out with a different battery, do they make the old battery obsolete so you have to buy a new car.

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Filling a decent sized hydrogen bottle wouldn't be quick.

3-6 minutes
http://ecomento.com/2014/03/07/honda...ust-3-minutes/

[Dash_XR]

From what I understand Hydrogen fuel is brilliant but to expensive to make, from the fuel manufactures point of few why hurt their massive profit margins when they can just make petrol cheaply?