Do I need a camber kit? Alignment chart attached

[Jack91]

Bridgestone tried convincing me I need to spent $400+ on this, can I get a few more opinions?



Hope the pics are good enough

[T3man]

In general there's nothing wrong with the front figures from what I see. However it seems they have not adjusted your rear to specs. You might ask them why? Or maybe I'm not seeing the chart very well.

Could you please transcribe the figure into print for me?

I want to see the individual figures for:-.

Front Castor Left ..... and Right .....
Front Camber L ..... and R .....
Front Toe L ..... and R .....

Rear Camber L ..... and R .....
Rear Toe L ..... and R .....

Just fill in the spaces if you like.

[Jack91]

Originally Posted by T3man

In general there's nothing wrong with the front figures from what I see. However it seems they have not adjusted your rear to specs. You might ask them why? Or maybe I'm not seeing the chart very well.

Could you please transcribe the figure into print for me?

I want to see the individual figures for:-.

Front Castor Left ..... and Right .....
Front Camber L ..... and R .....
Front Toe L ..... and R .....

Rear Camber L ..... and R .....
Rear Toe L ..... and R .....

Just fill in the spaces if you like.

It doesnt say anything on it, only little useless diagrams that are too small to make out.
Ill fill the blanks in on the chart of what I posted though.

LEFT INITIAL RIGHT
7.37o 7.39o
-1.65o -1.20o
1.5mm 1.9mm
-0.16o -0.12o
0.00mm -0.04o -1.0mm



LEFT FINAL RIGHT
7.38o 7.39o
-1.64o -1.23o
1.7mm 1.7mm
-0.12o -0.08o
1.4mm -0.06o -0.2mm


The front of the car diagram in the initial column is 3.4mm, back is -1.0mm
In the final column, the front is 3.5mm, rear is 1.1mm

Hope you can make sense of that.
Basically went in to get it all done at once, and he mentioned it, so Ive been sort of weighing up the options for a while but last weekend I had to replace the most scrubbing out tyre due to a puncture so I figure it might be a good time to do it, if it is in fact necessary. I cant notice my rears wearing though. I shouldve asked more questions but I was so angry when I went to go and get the car (really really bad service there) that I just wanted to get out asap. Any help would be appreciated because Id rather spend this sort of money elsewhere if its not too bad. If it is a problem though and could cause a noticeable amount of uneven wear then I will get it done.

[JC]

Was the front left tyre the one that scrubbed?

From what you've posted, the figures in order are castor, camber and then toe. I've filled in the figures below for you:

Front Castor Left 7.38 and Right 7.39 (these were 7.37 & 7.39)
Front Camber L -1.64 and R -1.23 (these were -1.65 & -1.20)
Front Toe L 1.7mm and R 1.7mm (these were 1.5 & 1.9)

Rear Camber L -0.12. and R -0.08 (these were -0.16 & -0.12)
Rear Toe L 1.4mm and R -0.2mm (these were 0.00 and -1.0)

[T3man]

The front is damn near perfect for spirited road use - almost track specs. I'm guessing you must have super low springs?? Just make sure you keep your tyre pressures up to 40psi minimum at the front with these settings or you will get excessive wear on the insides of your tyres.

The rear is up to poop - if you are unhappy with this place then you have every right to be.

Go somewhere else and have them adjust the rear for you so there is about 1 degree negative camber on both sides (or -1 left and -0.8 right will do). You can use less negative rear camber but your handling will suffer. Your rear toe MUST be set equal and it should be about 1/2 to 1mm IN.

Then set your rear tyres about 2 to 4 psi lower than the fronts and go for a nice quick drive on a road you know well. Feel the difference? Hope you do.

PS. I'm guessing the rear right was the tyre that scrubbed the worst.

[svo supporter]

4MM of thread should give you about 1/2 degree more positive camber. (In other words, stand the wheel up, so you're figures should be (L) 1 degree camber and (R) 3/4 degrees.

This is bearable, providing you have 3 to 3.5 MM toe in. So it's your call there


IMA I am very surprised they didn't try and stand the wheel up(adding shims), seeing as they went to the trouble of checking how much thread you did have. It does seem they wanted to hit you in the hip pocket a little harder.

[Jack91]

Originally Posted by JC

Was the front left tyre the one that scrubbed?

)

Spot on. Left front it was

Originally Posted by T3man

The front is damn near perfect for spirited road use - almost track specs. I'm guessing you must have super low springs?? Just make sure you keep your tyre pressures up to 40psi minimum at the front with these settings or you will get excessive wear on the insides of your tyres.

The rear is up to poop - if you are unhappy with this place then you have every right to be.

Go somewhere else and have them adjust the rear for you so there is about 1 degree negative camber on both sides (or -1 left and -0.8 right will do). You can use less negative rear camber but your handling will suffer. Your rear toe MUST be set equal and it should be about 1/2 to 1mm IN.

Then set your rear tyres about 2 to 4 psi lower than the fronts and go for a nice quick drive on a road you know well. Feel the difference? Hope you do.

PS. I'm guessing the rear right was the tyre that scrubbed the worst.

I have very very low springs yeah dont know the rating though. 40psi you say? Ill show my dad that, he still ives in the 80's where 30psi was too much and gets up me when I put any more than that in. In fact. This is his fault then. Lol.

So. Basically what you are all saying is I already got screwed by this place and the camber kit is a waste of money in my case? Is it worth going back around there with some solid facts and demanding they do it again? If it is in fact wrong and theyve been lazy then I will. This is a proper bridgestone store aswell. Oh, anyone in Tassie. Its Bridgestone at Moonah. Thanks for your help so far. Aprreciate more feedback

[Jack91]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

4MM of thread should give you about 1/2 degree more positive camber. (In other words, stand the wheel up, so you're figures should be (L) 1 degree camber and (R) 3/4 degrees.

This is bearable, providing you have 3 to 3.5 MM toe in. So it's your call there


IMA I am very surprised they didn't try and stand the wheel up(adding shims), seeing as they went to the trouble of checking how much thread you did have. It does seem they wanted to hit you in the hip pocket a little harder.

Reckon youve got it. I still had to pay full price for the all round wheel alignment and to get every wheel balanced. Suspisiousley the fuel gauge had gone down nearly a quarter, but I dont take note of the km's so Ill let that slide because it does stick sometimes.

[T3man]

30 psi - no wonder your tyres are scrubbed!

Have you got the driver's handbook for the car? If so look to the specs in there and show them the figures for the rear - then ask them nicely to set it up properly since you've already paid them to do it. I'm pretty sure the rear of the XRs are fully adjustable for camber and toe like the T-Series; but if not, I apologise to the place for being so critical of their workmanship.

As for the front you do not need a camber kit IMO.

[GS608]

sorry to hijack but was gonna start a thread similar. I recently got new wheels and they did an alignment and all that told me to come back in 5,000 kms for a check up, haven't done that yet but wanted to get someone to check over the read outs they gave me..reading here they don't seem too good. Was done on a Beissbarth machine.

Front
Caster - Left +6.68 Right +7.24 (were +6.67 and 7.23)
Camber - Left -1.89 Right -1.42 (were -1.88 and -1.50)
Toe - Left +1.8mm Right 1.8mm (were +1.3mm and 8.6mm)

Rear
Camber - Left -0.49 Right -0.01 (were -0.49 and-0.01)
Toe - Left +1.2mm Right -0.7mm (were +1.3mm and -0.9mm)

They also told me to keep a cold psi of 36 (245/35/19) and I don't need a camber kit

[svo supporter]

Firstly, low pressures cause inside and outside edge wear. Not just one edge.

XR CHIEF. The front cambers don't look too pretty for tyre life. (Inside edge wear both sides). I'd prefer to know how much thread you have on the UCA bolts, before committing to a kit.

[T3man]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

Firstly, low pressures cause inside and outside edge wear. Not just one edge.

Basically true but you are ignoring the most important things - it is the relationship between camber and toe that will determine where the pressure (contact patch) is applied to the tyre. In the case here with some amount of negative camber, the tyre will wear much more on the inside edge if pressures are not kept up - the outside edge is "protected" somewhat by the camber. Naturally the style of driving will also have a bearing - there is no point in someone running a lot of negative camber if they want to just nancy around - the real benefit (to both handling performance and tyre longevity) will only be realised if the car is being "driven". Which is why I said right at the start that the figures presented here are getting close to what you would run on a track car.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by T3man

Basically true but you are ignoring the most important things - it is the relationship between camber and toe that will determine where the pressure (contact patch) is applied to the tyre. In the case here with some amount of negative camber, the tyre will wear much more on the inside edge if pressures are not kept up - the outside edge is "protected" somewhat by the camber. Naturally the style of driving will also have a bearing - there is no point in someone running a lot of negative camber if they want to just nancy around - the real benefit (to both handling performance and tyre longevity) will only be realised if the car is being "driven". Which is why I said right at the start that the figures presented here are getting close to what you would run on a track car.

Not ignoring the camber issue. It doesn't matter how much neg camber is on the car. If the pressures are low, you will have inner and outer edge wear. The inner edge wear will be more prevelant, but there will still be outer edge wear none the less.

Track start pressures are another issue all together. You start with low pressures with track work. With the increased stress placed upon the tyres for track work, the pressures increase rather rapidly, therefore reaching the desired pressure, to stop the dreaded edge wear.

Tyre life and track work don't go hand in hand. Tyres are stressed more doing track work therefore wear quicker than if they are used for general road use.

When it comes to camber and toe settings for the track, generally, you run camber in the order of 2 + degrees neg, along with 0 to 2 MM toe out. So, you are going to get inner edge wear, no matter what you do. These camber and toe settings, allow for excellent handling, when it comes to cornering and maintaning corner speed. IMA, These settings are used for a car that sees road kays, along with track work. When it comes to race only cars, the camber becomes more negative, along with the toe becoming more outwards.

The idea behind tyre life for the street, when it comes alignment settings, is to make sure the whole tyre surface is touching the road surface, when the car is going in a straight line. The little tricks used, to help this, when it comes to camber settings, is with the toe. The higher the neg camber figures, the more toe in you allow, when setting it.

It is an art form, juggling camber and toe settings, when it comes to making tyres live when used on a daily driver. It's not something that you can find out reading a book, or reading on a forum like this. It comes from experience and sighting of tyres.

So I'll leave it there and I do apologise to the mods for going off topic.

[T3man]

Hmmm, love your sig ...