Why so few old Falcons remaining compared to Commodores?

[MrZ]

I've just been looking up statistics online - if we look at old Falcons vs. Commodores, there are about 3 times as many Commodores left on the roads than Falcons. See numbers here:

Commodore:

1996 6293 7%
1997 6284 8%
1998 8975 9%
1999 14558 17%

Falcon:

1996 2212 3%
1997 2232 3%
1998 2439 3%
1999 4187 6%

Here's where things get weird - if we look at 2003 models (BA vs VY) a higher percentage of Falcons remain compared with Commodores! It's about 50% vs 40%. (how can Falcon go from 50% of 2003's remaining to 6% of 1999s! In the space of 4 years... wow!)

Note: the above figures are only for sedans and wagons, and don't include utes. Falcon figures include Fairmont, while Commodore include Calais.

[fatgas]

I'll cop a heap of flak for this but the explanation is simple, the Falcons of that era have rusted away. Paint prep wasn't Ford's forte (no pun intended) and it carried over to the B-series and to a lesser extent the F-series too. Holden painted their cars to a much higher standard than Ford.

[ToryMikey]

Originally Posted by fatgas

I'll cop a heap of flak for this but the explanation is simple, the Falcons of that era have rusted away. Paint prep wasn't Ford's forte (no pun intended) and it carried over to the B-series and to a lesser extent the F-series too. Holden painted their cars to a much higher standard than Ford.

100% on the money.

Not to mention, the AU was less rust prone than the EL and that could potentially account for the higher 1999 figures than 1998.

Holdens have been considerably less rust prone than the equivalent Ford since VN.

[Tonz]

Falcons are still prized and collected, Holden's are passed on for bogan and drug runs

[smoo]

How are they registered, are Falcon and Fairmont and Fairmont Ghia listed as different models while commodore covers everything from Executive - Berlina - Calais?

[MrZ]

Originally Posted by smoo

How are they registered, are Falcon and Fairmont and Fairmont Ghia listed as different models while commodore covers everything from Executive - Berlina - Calais?

Falcon and Fairmont are registered separately, but I combined them in my figures above. Same for Commodore and Calais.

[rare ss]

Sad to say but rust is a big factor.. commodores held up much better that falcons

[prktkljokr]

Ford never sold as many cars as Holden did, 2018 was the first time Ford outsold Holden and we all know why.

Holden sold more cars for 21 years, part of this due to its success at Bathurst and peoples mentality back then that a winning car has to be a good car

So if you compare the sales numbers of each brand each year you will see that Holden was selling pretty much 3 to 1, with toyota taking up second place in car sales, this will affect your percentage when looking at the data

[MrZ]

Originally Posted by prktkljokr

Ford never sold as many cars as Holden did, 2018 was the first time Ford outsold Holden and we all know why.

Holden sold more cars for 21 years, part of this due to its success at Bathurst and peoples mentality back then that a winning car has to be a good car

So if you compare the sales numbers of each brand each year you will see that Holden was selling pretty much 3 to 1, with toyota taking up second place in car sales, this will affect your percentage when looking at the data

There was very little sales difference between Falcon and Commodore in the years that I listed. In 1996 for example, 83,001 Commodores vs. 77,835 Falcons. 1997 was 76,849 Commodore 71,850 Falcon. I also listed the percentage remaining for each model/year - this obviously takes into consideration the difference in sales figures.

[Franco Cozzo]

Also better support from GM and the aftermarket for older Commodores compared to Falcons, you can still get genuine parts for my VSII Caprice from my local LDV dealer

(Former Holden dealer)

[XR Martin]

Don't think rust protection is any better between the two.
VLs rusted as bad yet there's a 100x more on the road today than XFs.
It's simply due to Holden having more Holden enthusiasts, who will keep their cars on the road longer.
And Holden sold more enthusiast models, which are more likely going to stay on the road longer also.

[ToryMikey]

Originally Posted by XR Martin

Don't think rust protection is any better between the two.
VLs rusted as bad yet there's a 100x more on the road today than XFs.
It's simply due to Holden having more Holden enthusiasts, who will keep their cars on the road longer.
And Holden sold more enthusiast models, which are more likely going to stay on the road longer also.

I wish I could agree with you, but how many VR/VS utes do you see still running around versus the XG/XH equivalents? And the XG/XH you do see all have blown out sills...

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by XR Martin

Don't think rust protection is any better between the two.
VLs rusted as bad yet there's a 100x more on the road today than XFs.
It's simply due to Holden having more Holden enthusiasts, who will keep their cars on the road longer.
And Holden sold more enthusiast models, which are more likely going to stay on the road longer also.

VB to VL rusted as bad as Falcon XF-EL, although not quite as bad as XD-XE.

Holden changed their assembly procedures at VN & from then onwards were markedly better in the rust department than the equivalent Ford.

Find any VN-VS these days, it might have dead trim & some of the electrics & mechanicals, but their bodies do seem have stood the test of time. Have a look in wrecking yards, it's quite noticeable.

You're are correct about the enthusiast market, Ford took a 10-12 year break from anything remotely resembling a performance car, while HDT & HSV had a field day. This shows up in desirability & resale values of cars of that era.

Dr Terry

[Sprintey]

Great use of data there Mr Z.

I've wondered the same looking at how few Falcon wagons survive compared to the Commodore ones. I concluded the Fords were more likely to be fleet and run to high kms/into the ground earlier, while the Holdens probably attracted more private buyers who kept them over the years, like my mum and dad.

Also, yes, the cars would get to the stage where the head gasket or transmission is more expensive to replace compared to value of the car, and it's see ya later wrecking time for most of those.

It will be interesting to see how today's more complex/expensive to repair cars go through this value/scrapping point.

[Franco Cozzo]

Everyone is wrong, we all know its because the superior engine option of the mighty 3.8L Ecotec V6

Had this old bloke customer with a VN wagon come into my workshop for a rear wiper motor, things odometer stopped working at 727,000km, this was in 2015.

The guy had been all around Australia in it with his family, had done two gearboxes and still on its original Buick V6, the predecessor to the mighty Ecotec, I reckon he's probably pushing up daisies now he was old AF back then, VN wagon is still probably going.

[prktkljokr]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I reckon he's probably pushing up daisies now he was old AF back then, VN wagon is still probably going.

Yeah probably doin skids in the hands of some bogan teenager, I remember there was a guy who bolted a turbo to a pretty stock VN V6 that had over 400,000 on it with a few other minor ECU, injector and fuel supply mods and it was doing close to 10's, dunno how long it lasted but cheap thrills for sure.

[None-ya]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Everyone is wrong, we all know its because the superior engine option of the mighty 3.8L Ecotec V6

Had this old bloke customer with a VN wagon come into my workshop for a rear wiper motor, things odometer stopped working at 727,000km, this was in 2015.

The guy had been all around Australia in it with his family, had done two gearboxes and still on its original Buick V6, the predecessor to the mighty Ecotec, I reckon he's probably pushing up daisies now he was old AF back then, VN wagon is still probably going.

Mang till ya bang, or just randomly bang going down th highway, or apon (?) Start up at under 70k.

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

VB to VL rusted as bad as Falcon XF-EL, although not quite as bad as XD-XE.

Holden changed their assembly procedures at VN & from then onwards were markedly better in the rust department than the equivalent Ford.

Find any VN-VS these days, it might have dead trim & some of the electrics & mechanicals, but their bodies do seem have stood the test of time. Have a look in wrecking yards, it's quite noticeable.

You're are correct about the enthusiast market, Ford took a 10-12 year break from anything remotely resembling a performance car, while HDT & HSV had a field day. This shows up in desirability & resale values of cars of that era.

Dr Terry

The biggest rust buckets were the XA-B-C Falcons shocking even from new such was starting.

I thought from VB Commodore they were using a much better steel, only the windscreen became a problem area after the old one was pulled out and took the paint off, then the problems kicked off !

Then again back in the 1960's to say 1980 we had highways that were the type that you had to get 2 wheels off onto the dirt when a car came the other way, so the left side coped a lot of mud etc and many % people did not bother to wash their cars well or parked them outside.

More Dirt roads as well years ago and dirt gets in the bottom of the doors and then rain and due from sitting out side makes more rust and the bottom of the doors would block up, i would have to poke a stick up the drain holes many a time as you would hear water splashing when shutting the door.

Look at how wide the roads are now ! no chipped windscreen once a month anymore nowadays.

I just believe that people back from before 1990's did not look after a car as well as some do nowadays.

I think more people have learnt to look after their car nowadays because you have to Radiator coolant for one or else ! many more know this nowadays ! before such was no an issue !
So i hear people claim that the VL 3.0L was a crap engine ? i reject that and put such down to not servicing them correctly and not bleeding the radiator is a big mistake many made.

Falcons got better with rust from XD on and were the much the same to the end, maybe a bit better.

But i believe that the steel from 1972 to 77 with ford and Valiant was that Holden got first dibs regarding steel and Ford came 2ed but had to import some times and Valiant's came 3rd so they had to get steel imported at times and this was old crap steel that was melted down to make new steel, but within this was small % of rust that was within the brew, even tho they had skimmed off all of the crud from the top ! Am i correct for them years, maybe they got the art work better regards such. The VB Commodores got a new formula for steel they claim and coating and a smash repair dude i know well said that welding this steel was harder than before.

[FairmontGS]

Originally Posted by XR Martin

Don't think rust protection is any better between the two.
VLs rusted as bad yet there's a 100x more on the road today than XFs.
It's simply due to Holden having more Holden enthusiasts, who will keep their cars on the road longer.
And Holden sold more enthusiast models, which are more likely going to stay on the road longer also.

^^^ this

There was nothing worth preserving in between XE to EB

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by FairmontGS

^^^ this

There was nothing worth preserving in between XE to EB

Sounds exactly like 2016 - current out of Ford Australia's range just quietly

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Sounds exactly like 2016 - current out of Ford Australia's range just quietly

I'd bet that of everything today, it will be the Cruisers that last the longest (25 year service life built in to design) - but wonder if the diesels will be the rebuild that sends them to scrap early.

Edit: or they get an LS swap lol

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

I'd bet that of everything today, it will be the Cruisers that last the longest (25 year service life built in to design) - but wonder if the diesels will be the rebuild that sends them to scrap early.

Edit: or they get an LS swap lol

Saw someone clearing out Gen V LT1s for $13K yesterday:

https://www.holley.com/blog/post/eve...n_v_lt_engine/

Perfect engine for repower of VDJ79

[whynot]

Originally Posted by FairmontGS

^^^ this

There was nothing worth preserving in between XE to EB

Not even the XE ESP V8?

[fatgas]

Originally Posted by whynot

Not even the XE ESP V8?

He said in-between, which means XF to EAII

[bigdude1011]

I assume transmission issues sent quite a few to an early crushing. Head gaskets for the E-series too.

With that being said, here in Melbourne, I see more AU-BF Falcons than VT-VZ Commodores, though I do live in the northern suburbs, so that probably skews things.

[MITCHAY]

I went out for a smoke the other day and there was an EF or EL Falcon in the carpark.

First thought was it was it's been a long time since I have seen one, and it was parked next to a new Hilux.

These cars used to be large and everywhere now it is rare

[ford71V8]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

I went out for a smoke the other day and there was an EF or EL Falcon in the carpark.

First thought was it was it's been a long time since I have seen one, and it was parked next to a new Hilux.

These cars used to be large and everywhere now it is rare

Adelaide has them all. Still see them regularly including Fairlanes of the era. Some are even neat and tidy

[MITCHAY]

Now that I think of it. The Falcon went from AU to BA-BF to FG-FGX with what seems no real increase in size.

Go from VT-VZ to VE-VF and it is a massive difference in size.

[MITCHAY]

There is a bloke who has a mint EL XR6 in my complex. He must be in his 80s at best maybe pushing 90s. Still driving it and walking around every day

[My32Doors]

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/austr...bedeaf66&ei=46