Extractors

neb · 06-01-2005, 05:45 PM

Alright usually with this type of thread people will say do a search.. but I can get away with it this time since I don't think this has been covered yet on the new forums!

I currently have standard pacemaker extractors at the moment and i think they arent designed that well.. they are too big. So I'm trying to decide what to replace them with (it won't be for a while yet but just looking into it).

I'm tossing up between...

1. HM Headers - these look really good but the $900 price mark is a bit much!
2. Pacemaker Competition - i've heard good things about these seems like a good option, i think they have smaller primaries then the standard pacies?
3. Jim Mock Race Series - seems like a fairly good option as well.

So what do you think? Anyone tried different ones of these? Anything else you would recommend?

Sox · 06-01-2005, 05:49 PM

The JMM race series are about as good as it gets.

Rick.

AdzT3-146 · 06-01-2005, 06:20 PM

I don't have much knowledge on extractors but still on topic i looking into getting a Lukey Headers and 2.5" exhaust package.

Im sort of on a budget and can't quite afford the best, has anyone got any experience with this product? good/bad?

any help would be appreciated

Sox · 06-01-2005, 06:35 PM

I believe JMM used Lukey headers before they designed there own. That's perhaps a good sign.

Rick.

Psycho Chicken · 06-01-2005, 06:35 PM

Bear in mind HPC coated JMM Race series, while they generally seem to be the best, the are around the 900 dollar mark as well.

I'll be putting Pacemaker 4480s on mine. Some day.

neb · 06-01-2005, 06:39 PM

Pacemaker 4480s are the competition ones yes? I think I like the HM ones best at the moment.. but leaning towards Pacemakers because of the price.

Thanatos · 06-01-2005, 06:51 PM

4480's are the comp ones.

All of the extractors you listed are really good.

My view is that you would see some gains with any of them.

HM Headers - I'm using these myself, so that's gotta say what i think of them! Yes, they are $900, but they are stainless steel and include a high-flow cat (normally worth $250+ by itself). The biggest drawback is that they are a bit awkward to fit to an e-series because they were designed for an AU. (The swaybar needs to be spaced out to accomodate them - not too hard to do). The primaries are smaller than your current pacies, but bigger than the other two you listed. These seem to suit a car that is worked (cam, head, etc.) rather than a standard car.

Pacie Comps - These seem to be more suited to an auto, because they provide more low down than the other two you listed. They have the same diameter primaries as the Jim Mock Race Series.

Jim Mock Race Series - same design as your current pacies, but with longer secondaries and smaller diameter primaries. Seem to suit both stock and worked cars, however, they would be slightly more restrictive on a heavily worked car than the HMs (regardless of what JMM say! :P)

Psycho Chicken · 06-01-2005, 06:56 PM

But Dave, which Pacey comps are you talking about? I'm assuming the 4480s are the ones John has? That's what I was told anyway.

neb · 06-01-2005, 07:01 PM

4480s are the competition ones.. which are sort of in a twisted shape.. if that makes sense :p

EFFalcon · 06-01-2005, 07:02 PM

yeah, 4480's are mine

Psycho Chicken · 06-01-2005, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neb

4480s are the competition ones.. which are sort of in a twisted shape.. if that makes sense :p

There are two different comp ones. The 6 > 3 > 1 and the 6 > 2 > 1.

EFFalcon · 06-01-2005, 07:08 PM

yeah, the old comps that i've seen actually had the 4499 part number.

Psycho Chicken · 06-01-2005, 07:10 PM

Yep, that's the number I was trying to remember.

neb · 06-01-2005, 07:38 PM

oh ok i didn't realise there were 2 type of comp pacemakers!

Damo · 06-01-2005, 07:41 PM

$900 sounds like a lot for HM headers. Kenaz put a set of HM headers and full 2.5 inch system with tip on his old commodore, and i think that was about 800 with labour! I'd get some more prices for HM headers alone.. sounds a bit rich.

ohh and I got no idea on what you should get.

Hope this helps.

Sox · 06-01-2005, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanatos

Jim Mock Race Series - same design as your current pacies, but with longer secondaries and smaller diameter primaries. Seem to suit both stock and worked cars, however, they would be slightly more restrictive on a heavily worked car than the HMs (regardless of what JMM say! :P)

I doubt it.
You'd need to be producing well in excess of 250kw and 7000rpm before they became restrictive.
I don't know of too many I6's like that.

1.5" primaries are all that is needed on a NA 4L, and will promote far better low down response.

The only application which may need larger primaries, is forced.

Rick.

Thanatos · 06-01-2005, 09:06 PM

The comps i was talking about are the 6>3>1 ones. They are the only comps available now, as the "other" comps are an older model.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sox

I doubt it.
You'd need to be producing well in excess of 250kw and 7000rpm before they became restrictive.
I don't know of too many I6's like that.

1.5" primaries are all that is needed on a NA 4L, and will promote far better low down response.

Where did you get those figures?

I agreed that the smaller primaries are better for low end, but the HM's are not exactly huge, being that they are only 1-2mm bigger than the JMMs (i did measure the difference, but i can't remember if it's 1 or 2 mm now).

Thanatos · 06-01-2005, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damo

$900 sounds like a lot for HM headers. Kenaz put a set of HM headers and full 2.5 inch system with tip on his old commodore, and i think that was about 800 with labour! I'd get some more prices for HM headers alone.. sounds a bit rich.

ohh and I got no idea on what you should get.

Hope this helps.

Yes, $900 is right. but as i said earlier, they are stainless steel AND the include a high-flow cat (normally valued at $250+ by itself!)

INJECTED_250 · 06-01-2005, 09:25 PM

grrr... just put the stock manifold back on ben.. :> and give me youre pipes instead..

neb · 06-01-2005, 09:26 PM

$900 is the price i got directly from the hm headers website.. well it was $920 or something. it does include a cat though not that i need one but yeah...

i havn't decided what i want yet..

Sox · 06-01-2005, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanatos

Where did you get those figures?

My head.

Quote:

I agreed that the smaller primaries are better for low end, but the HM's are not exactly huge, being that they are only 1-2mm bigger than the JMMs (i did measure the difference, but i can't remember if it's 1 or 2 mm now).

I wasn't comparing to the H&M's, I was disagreeing with your comment about 1.5" primaries restricting a high HP application.
1.5" primaries are the ideal size for just about any NA application, whatever the make.

Rick.

Thanatos · 06-01-2005, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sox

My head.

Lol. Well that's useful then, mate! :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sox

I wasn't comparing to the H&M's, I was disagreeing with your comment about 1.5" primaries restricting a high HP application.
1.5" primaries are the ideal size for just about any NA application, whatever the make.

I didn't say the JMM's were restrictive, what i said is that in a heavily worked car they would be more restrictive than the HM's. This is fairly obvious, as they have bigger diameter pipe, and as such can flow more. How much work is required to make use of the extra flow i don't know. It may be out of the realms of your average I6, then again it might not be. Only extensive testing (which no-one here has done) would be able to tell us for sure.

INJECTED_250 · 06-01-2005, 10:08 PM

here we go again.. let me gues jmm has done this intesnsive testing

Sox · 06-01-2005, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanatos

Lol. Well that's useful then, mate! :P

Depends what's in there, experience counts for a lot.

Quote:

I didn't say the JMM's were restrictive, what i said is that in a heavily worked car they would be more restrictive than the HM's. This is fairly obvious, as they have bigger diameter pipe, and as such can flow more. How much work is required to make use of the extra flow i don't know. It may be out of the realms of your average I6, then again it might not be. Only extensive testing (which no-one here has done) would be able to tell us for sure.

Again, this is where experience counts, simple maths will tell you that 1.5" primaries are pretty much ideal for the I6.

Sure, if you want a pro stock engine which spins to 9000rpm, and has a useful powerband ranging from 7500rpm and 9000rpm, then go for larger primaries.

However in any street driven NA engine which doesn't see past 6500rpm, there are no gains to be had by using a larger diameter primary.

Rick.

INJECTED_250 · 06-01-2005, 10:20 PM

1.5 inch is more than likely going to be enuf for the average joe. A stock ecu wont go over 5 3/4 rpm any hows, and with the majority of us running cams around the 500 th lift mark, im prob going to have to agrea with sox which is a first.
On the dyno working with 250's which although are differnt in head desigine and cam profiles, we found there was more to be gained from longer runner length than the actual primary pipe size, we tried 3 diffrent sets, with the no name brand which had LONG primary producing more power and torque than the pacy and lukey pipes.

Thanatos · 06-01-2005, 10:25 PM

Maybe it would take 9000rpm to make use of the extra flow, maybe it wouldn't! I DON'T KNOW.

I don't think that throwing randomly generated rpm ranges into the mix counts as facts, either :P :P :P

Experience does count for a lot. And i know you've got experience (not sure how many extractors you've had though).

I've had a set of Lukey's which have the same diameter pipe as the JMM extractors and i've had HM's. I know the difference, so i'm just basing my thoughts on what i've experienced with those and what i know about extractor design.

Cheers,
Dave

TUFED6 · 06-01-2005, 10:25 PM

Ditch the extractors and put a pump on it!

- John

Sox · 06-01-2005, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanatos

Maybe it would take 9000rpm to make use of the extra flow, maybe it wouldn't! I DON'T KNOW.

I know you don't know, that's why I'm telling you.

Quote:

I don't think that throwing randomly generated rpm ranges into the mix counts as facts, either :P :P :P

They aren't random, they are educated guesses based of a lot of time spent making nice engines. I'd bet reasonable amounts of money that the figures I've used are pretty close.

Quote:

Experience does count for a lot. And i know you've got experience (not sure how many extractors you've had though).

Probably too many, I've also hand made a few sets.

Quote:

I've had a set of Lukey's which have the same diameter pipe as the JMM extractors and i've had HM's. I know the difference, so i'm just basing my thoughts on what i've experienced with those and what i know about extractor design.

It's all good.

Rick.

Thanatos · 06-01-2005, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sox

I know you don't know, that's why I'm telling you.

They aren't random, they are educated guesses based of a lot of time spent making nice engines. I'd bet reasonable amounts of money that the figures I've used are pretty close.

What i do know, however, is someone who had to have custom made extractors made up, with larger diameter primaries, because the only ones he could buy were proving a restriction. This car has been known to rev to 7,500rpm on occasion, and is quite heavily worked.

What i said is that the HM's would flow better than the JMM's if the car was worked enough to make us of the flow. and i stand by that.

I don't beleive that it would require anywhere near 9000rpm to need larger extractors, but as i said earlier (and everyone seems to agree with) is that 99% of the I6's around wouldn't have the need for something bigger than the JMM ones.

Cheers,
Dave

stockstandard · 06-01-2005, 10:45 PM

Seeing as how most sources I can find agree that long runners are better than short, does anyone think it is worth while cutting and welding to increase the length. I have thought about it myself, it would be real easy to do with the ones I have as well, but I cant see it making a real difference. I am sure I have seens some pics from others who have done it.

If so, how much longer? 6", 12", more?