Lpg

[JPFS1]

Just an update if not already known...

Ford have been granted approval (came in yesterday) to manufacture and sell their current Euro3 LPG system.

Terms are that they can sell no more than 3,300 units, sedan, wagon and ute combined. They can manufacture and sell these units up to 30 September 2010.

[mcnews]

You mean a bureaucrat had a brain and made a call looking at the big picture! Wonders will never cease!

[JPFS1]

yeah, Anthony Albanese to be exact.

[OzJavelin]

Are they waiting for Liquid Injection to get them over the line for Euro4 or just keep tweeking the existing venturi system?

When is LI due? Everyone keep harping at me last year to hold off buying LPG FG to wait for this - it looks no closer to production now than it was then ..

[Mr Hardware]

Are they waiting for Liquid Injection to get them over the line for Euro4

Yes

When is LI due?

Probably about october!

[JPFS1]

considering exemption expires end of Sept, i would say around then?

like all new developments, issues are usually the norm, this was no exception.

[Joe5619]

Has a Oct-ish release been brought forward (of course after it was originally delayed from July this year)??? I've been of the mind set & read in heaps of places it was not due until early 2011..

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

Has a Oct-ish release been brought forward (of course after it was originally delayed from July this year)??? I've been of the mind set & read in heaps of places it was not due until early 2011..

could be... Ford have not officially commented on when they will bring it to market.

They will release when it is ready. I guess many people expected that the July 1st cut-off would automatically mean that the replacement product would be available.

[dragstar]

Sinead Mc Alry said next year in a recent article regarding Mondeo and the diesel engine.

[prydey]

can any of you chaps who have inside knowledge confirm (i think it has been already) that the new egas will be single fuel? and are the issues surrounding legislation regarding purging the lines for start up? that little piece of legislation seems like a fairly major hurdle but given the news seems to be that it will happen, i guess they've figured a way to make it work.

i own a current egas wagon and am looking to upgrade. my car is already on the market. maybe i should hold off a few more months.

[Bobman]

Originally Posted by JPFS1

like all new developments, issues are usually the norm, this was no exception.

These issues stem back years ago and this new gas system is long overdue. Should have been fitted on BFs onwards.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by prydey

can any of you chaps who have inside knowledge confirm (i think it has been already) that the new egas will be single fuel? and are the issues surrounding legislation regarding purging the lines for start up? that little piece of legislation seems like a fairly major hurdle but given the news seems to be that it will happen, i guess they've figured a way to make it work.

i own a current egas wagon and am looking to upgrade. my car is already on the market. maybe i should hold off a few more months.

Single gas, only LILPG on the market thats single fuel (as aftermarket cant have a straight LILPG), but apparently this is the issue.

[Bossxr8]

It was originally due in October, but has been pushed back to 2011. They wanted an exemption to keep making the current E Gas engines until October when it was due to be replaced, but obviously now they will have to stop before the LI engines are ready, which will probably mean no LPG engines for at least 4-5 months.

Why have they only got approval now when they have continued to build E Gas engines when its emmisions compliance ran out 2 weeks ago?

And why have they not applied for a further exemption to keep E Gas in production until next year when the LI engines come on stream?

I have seen a complete LI manifold and its a very neat setup, unless you know what you're looking for it will look hardly any different from the petrol engine.

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

It was originally due in October, but has been pushed back to 2011. They wanted an exemption to keep making the current E Gas engines until October when it was due to be replaced, but obviously now they will have to stop before the LI engines are ready, which will probably mean no LPG engines for at least 4-5 months.

Why have they only got approval now when they have continued to build E Gas engines when its emmisions compliance ran out 2 weeks ago?

And why have they not applied for a further exemption to keep E Gas in production until next year when the LI engines come on stream?

I have seen a complete LI manifold and its a very neat setup, unless you know what you're looking for it will look hardly any different from the petrol engine.

They obviously think that the 3300 units will be enough stock to get through to next year.

[JPFS1]

Some tid-bits from open briefing.

Originally Posted by CFO Keith Halliwell

Our operations will continue to be cash flow negative in the second half as we build the OAGS retrofit business. Looking at the bigger picture, we expect the company will experience its typical second half strength compared with the first half, and have sufficient cash for these requirements.

We’ll be gearing up for the new Ford liquid LPG injection system (LLi) supply contract and will manage cash, and particularly working capital levels, very closely in the second half. The new model Ford that will incorporate our LLi system is expected to launch towards the end of 2010 calendar year.

Originally Posted by CEO Terry Stinson

Through the balance of this fiscal year we’ll continue to invest in retrofit kits for Australian passenger cars and light trucks. Our investment will focus on vehicle models that historically have the highest level of LPG conversions. Most of the investment will be completed in the second half and we expect to have about 20 kits available for sale by the end of the financial year.

We anticipate that OAGS will be generating a profit in fiscal 2011, underpinned by the commencement of the production contract with Ford. We already supply Ford with LPG systems, however the new Ford system has a higher level of technology and much more content than the current system and this will make a significant difference to our revenue in the coming year.

[prydey]

i wonder how close the EcoBoost will run the LLi for cost at the bowser? Is there still a govt rebate on new cars with lpg? be interesting to see how ford plan to price the 3 variants in the future. i'd guess the standard I6 will be the cheapest.

be good to see the LLi models on the market before years end. public opinion on lpg is still largely unchanged and a factory Liquid setup may get more awareness about how good these new systems are.

[jpd80]

I'm sensing a general apathy for performance Falcon products because other
than the naturally aspirated I-6 LPG, Turbo and V8 versions are all well below
even 2009's low levels. Of the 16,000 Falcon sedans built so far this year only:
- 150 were XR8
- 880 were XR6T
- 544 were G6ET

All of those barely add up to 10% of build numbers.

LPG was usually around 20% of Falcon sales or about 3,200
so if Ford builds say, another 3,000 units by the cut off time
I think they will have sufficient stock to last until early 2011.

[vztrt]

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...716-10d2k.html

Ford given emissions exemption
STEPHEN OTTLEY
July 16, 2010 - 8:10AM

Local car maker Ford has been let off tough new vehicle emissions standards to save jobs.

The Federal Government has backed down from its strict emissions standards to protect Ford Australia from having to cut jobs.

The Victorian-based manufacturer – one of only three remaining local car makers - has been given an exemption from the new, stricter emissions regulations.

Despite not meeting the new Euro 4 standards that came into force on July 1, Ford will be able to keep producing its current LPG-powered Falcon models until September.

Sources have revealed that Ford approached the government as early as November last year requesting that Euro 4 regulations be pushed back industry wide by six months, despite being first announced in 2005.

The company reportedly told the minister it would be forced to slash jobs and close its Victorian factories if Euro 4 wasn’t delayed.

“The Government did not exempt Ford Australia from compliance with Australian Design Rules,” said a spokeswoman for Transport Minister Anthony Albanese.

“What we did, in light of the worst global financial crisis since the Great Depression, was to approve the supply of a limited number (up to 3300) of Euro 3 LPG vehicles to the Australian market, with strict conditions. Foremost in the Government’s considerations was the protection of Australian jobs during the global financial crisis.

“The Government is committed to Euro 4 standards and the automotive industry playing its part in tackling climate change and is working with Ford Australia to ensure its compliance as quickly as possible.”

Ford doesn’t have its Euro IV compliant liquid injection LPG engine, dubbed LPI, ready to go and won’t be on sale until next year.

The blue oval brand has also been forced to drop its V8 engine and the turbocharged six-cylinder engine for the Territory SUV because they don’t meet Euro IV; a new 5.0-litre V8 is being readied for the Falcon and is expected about October.

Ford Australia spokeswoman Sinead McAlary defended the action, saying the LPG Falcons were too important to drop from the line-up until the new model is ready.

“It’s such a big market for us and we’re not ready with our new LPI/LPG engine,” McAlary said. “Our intention is to build enough stock to see us through to next year.”

[Mick K.]

Originally Posted by JPFS1

Just an update if not already known...

Ford have been granted approval (came in yesterday) to manufacture and sell their current Euro3 LPG system.

Terms are that they can sell no more than 3,300 units, sedan, wagon and ute combined. They can manufacture and sell these units up to 30 September 2010.

Here is a link to an article on this topic:

http://brisbanetimes.drive.com.au/mo...716-10d2k.html

Originally Posted by Brisbane Times

The Federal Government has backed down from its strict emissions standards to protect Ford Australia from having to cut jobs.

The Victorian-based manufacturer – one of only three remaining local car makers - has been given an exemption from the new, stricter emissions regulations.

Despite not meeting the new Euro 4 standards that came into force on July 1, Ford will be able to keep producing its current LPG-powered Falcon models until September.

Sources have revealed that Ford approached the government as early as November last year requesting that Euro 4 regulations be pushed back industry wide by six months, despite being first announced in 2005.

The company reportedly told the minister it would be forced to slash jobs and close its Victorian factories if Euro 4 wasn’t delayed.

“The Government did not exempt Ford Australia from compliance with Australian Design Rules,” said a spokeswoman for Transport Minister Anthony Albanese.

“What we did, in light of the worst global financial crisis since the Great Depression, was to approve the supply of a limited number (up to 3300) of Euro 3 LPG vehicles to the Australian market, with strict conditions. Foremost in the Government’s considerations was the protection of Australian jobs during the global financial crisis.

“The Government is committed to Euro 4 standards and the automotive industry playing its part in tackling climate change and is working with Ford Australia to ensure its compliance as quickly as possible.”

Ford doesn’t have its Euro IV compliant liquid injection LPG engine, dubbed LPI, ready to go and won’t be on sale until next year.

The blue oval brand has also been forced to drop its V8 engine and the turbocharged six-cylinder engine for the Territory SUV because they don’t meet Euro IV; a new 5.0-litre V8 is being readied for the Falcon and is expected about October.

Ford Australia spokeswoman Sinead McAlary defended the action, saying the LPG Falcons were too important to drop from the line-up until the new model is ready.

“It’s such a big market for us and we’re not ready with our new LPI/LPG engine,” McAlary said. “Our intention is to build enough stock to see us through to next year.

MK

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by JPFS1

They obviously think that the 3300 units will be enough stock to get through to next year.

You said in the OP that the exemption only lasts until September, so are we going to stockpile them to last until next year?

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I'm sensing a general apathy for performance Falcon products because other
than the naturally aspirated I-6 LPG, Turbo and V8 versions are all well below
even 2009's low levels. Of the 16,000 Falcon sedans built so far this year only:
- 150 were XR8
- 880 were XR6T
- 544 were G6ET

All of those barely add up to 10% of build numbers.

LPG was usually around 20% of Falcon sales or about 3,200
so if Ford builds say, another 3,000 units by the cut off time
I think they will have sufficient stock to last until early 2011.

Well we now know that 90% of Falcons are the garden variety. Im shocked with so few Falcons being sold that the performance variants are not a higher percentage.

To put it into perspective Holden sold over 2000 V8 SS/V Sportwagons last year. More than all performance Fords put together!!

But everyone on here says that only fleets buy wagons....

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

You said in the OP that the exemption only lasts until September, so are we going to stockpile them to last until next year?

The exemption allows them to manufacture 3300 units to Sept 30th. So you can look at it like this... Euro4 dead line is now 30-Sept where egas Falcons are concerned. Can be sold after than date... just not manufactured. That's at least what Ford are saying.

The conditions of sale is a little confusing... The submission/approval docs suggest sale upto 30-Sept, yet Ford state they can stock pile and sell into next year.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Well we now know that 90% of Falcons are the garden variety. Im shocked with so few Falcons being sold that the performance variants are not a higher percentage.

To put it into perspective Holden sold over 2000 V8 SS/V Sportwagons last year. More than all performance Fords put together!!

But everyone on here says that only fleets buy wagons....

You want some depressing news, V8 Holden sales to June:
SS 1,156
SS-V 1,460
SS Sport Wagon 962
SS-v Sportwagon 1,555
SS Ute 391
SS-v Ute 644

Certainly doesn't look like those Sportwagons are all Omegas after all.....

[prydey]

i realise this is getting a bit off topic, but i find it ironic that people carry on about how silly it would be for ford to stop making v8's again, and yet no one is buying them. if no one buys them, ford can't afford to keep making them. its very simple.

[Resurrection]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

Yes
Probably about october!

October 2011.

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by jpd80

You want some depressing news, V8 Holden sales to June:
SS 1,156
SS-V 1,460
SS Sport Wagon 962
SS-v Sportwagon 1,555
SS Ute 391
SS-v Ute 644

Certainly doesn't look like those Sportwagons are all Omegas after all.....

Surely Ford would have to be thinking now if they pulled the right rein with the wagon now going off those figures. SS variants for the Sportswagon basically on par with their sedan counterparts. Hell I would be in one now if they had a decent wagon but instead Mazda got my money.

Originally Posted by prydey

i realise this is getting a bit off topic, but i find it ironic that people carry on about how silly it would be for ford to stop making v8's again, and yet no one is buying them. if no one buys them, ford can't afford to keep making them. its very simple.

Ford seem to have the self-fulfilliing prophecy mastered now. It appears to me that their lack of product development leads to lower sales. Then the lower sales then bring the model into question. Which in turn ends up with the model being axed. Maybe with a little more attention to keep the Ford product in the minds of the consumer will lead to better sales.

[PoweredByCNG]

Ford should never had received the exemption. Orbital have a perfectly working aftermarket dual-fuel solution for the FG Falcon. If a single-fuel solution couldn't be finalised before the deadline, the dual-fuel solution should have been used until the single-fuel solution can be finalised. I'm sure many customers would prefer to have the convenience and security of being able choose which fuel they use.

[jpd80]

Euro IV was proposed in 2005 and commenced in 2006, Ford has been dragging
its feet all that time, they did the same thing when Euro III was implemented,
they had that regulation pushed back too.

Holden has had Euro IV compliant engines since 2006 and their Dual fuel LPG is
Euro 4 compliant, I don't know why Ford is doing this but I think it has more to
do with trying to align all changes with release of diesel Territory and Ecoboost
I-4 Falcon. If they play this right, Ford will achieve huge saving by only
changing and re balancing their plant once.

As a side note, given Holden's Sportwagon performance sales figures,
Ford would be insane not to do a sportwagon, it is different to the
heavier RWD Territory and more in keeping with changing buyer needs.

[Luke Plaizier]

I know that a lot of people here are attacking HSV for offering LiLPG, but in reality, if I'm ever to get a V8 again it's going to need to be LPG or Turbo Diesel to keep the running costs down. The JTG system in our Territory has made quite a difference - and it's convincingly more powerful on LPG too.

Ford clearly won't be doing a V8 LiLPG any time soon, but the next best thing would be finding a dealer that would bundle an aftermarket Dual Fuel system into a new V8 and give me full Factory/Dealer warranty.......

Anyone know of any dealers that might consider this?

Do aftermarket installers have to prove EURO III or IV compliance in their products too?


Lukeyson

[bmorris]

Its getting a little bit concerning how Ford are struggling to meet deadlines. They knew this date was coming for a long time now... Same with the change of v8 engines. I hope they aren't developing a culture of leaving things to the last minute.