New car safety and its ramifications

[WMD351]

Have advancements in car safety led to a reduction in the competence of drivers as time goes on? Hello people, it would appear some forum members feel that this is the case and I would like to gauge the public opinion on this matter.
New cars today, through improved handling, braking, air bags, abs, dsc, etc. create a much larger margin for driver error than the first car I started driving 25 years ago.
Have our driving standards diminished, are we lulled into a false sense of security as a result of the belief that we're "safe" when we get behind the wheel? Should people be taught to drive in an "older" car to gain perspective?

[XR6TCraig]

Our driving standards were always crap. Licences are given to anyone and everyone who can parrallel park a small car, stay under the speed limit and not kill anyone during a driving test. Not a lot of skill involved I am afraid.

The licencing system is designed so that we can get as many people on the road as possible, so that the government has a steady stream of income from things like fuel exise, registration, GST on everything car related ( from car wash to repairs,etc), and of course the flash for cash and mobile radar units. Basically there are more fish in the barrel!

What the improvements in car safety has done is save lives. Despite the increase in cars on the road and the increase in accident numbers, less of the population is dead as a result of the safety improvements you have mentioned.

Of course the government site the fact that the road toll isnt increasing despite the rise in cars on the road to show you how effective their revenue raising campaigns are. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy!

To gain perspective, I actually think everyone who applies for a drivers licence should first do 12 months on a motorbike or scooter. This seems to be the case in some european countries, like Italy, although I am not sure if it is mandatory. This would give people some real perspective of the actual danger out on the road and make them much better drivers as they would develop real road craft skills.

[Peter B - CV8]

Cars,in general, have become so much easier to drive & control - people basically treat them as simply another household appliance & this leads to a degree of complacency when behind the wheel.
Having said that, I believe that the majority of drivers still have a reasonable degree of competency in general driving conditions. Throw in some unusual driving conditions though (ie heavy rain, fog, towing, reversing with a trailer/caravan, & it soon becomes evident that many drivers are "out of their depth".

[WMD351]

Yes the licensing standards as well. I've heard that here in Vic the RTA have made it harder to fail because they figure if they don't give someone a license they'll just go out and drive without one anyway, and at least if they have a license it's easier for the authorities to keep on top of the resulting paperwork.

[geckoGT]

I think for many of the reasons that I have outlined in the other thread, the safety features of newer cars has not made us more dangerous drivers or dependent on that technology.

I think back to when I did my driving lessons, no ABS and not one instructor put me into any form of slide and taught me how to get out of it, nor was I tested on that ability.

Slide control and anti skid braking techniques such as pulse braking or threshold braking were not commonly taught and definitely not practiced or tested. They just took you a for a little drive, made you reverse park, made you do a hill start, took your money and gave you the magic card. The rest was up to you.

What the safety features have done now is just widen the margin for error in the majority of situations and as a result it is clearly evident that more people are surviving road crashes. In the 1960's, crashes of below 60 km/h were causing fatalities and any crash at that speed was almost guaranteed to cause severe injury. Today crashes pretty much have to be over 100 km/h to involve a fatality and in many cases people are getting out of these crashes with their lives. People are now walking out of 60 km/h crashes with not a mark on them (I see it all the time).

So no I do not believe that we have lost skills due to new driver aids, I just think that in terms of the general public, the aids are making up for the skills they do not have.

[4.0i_SiX]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I think for many of the reasons that I have outlined in the other thread, the safety features of newer cars has not made us more dangerous drivers or dependent on that technology.

I think back to when I did my driving lessons, no ABS and not one instructor put me into any form of slide and taught me how to get out of it, nor was I tested on that ability.

Slide control and anti skid braking techniques such as pulse braking or threshold braking were not commonly taught and definitely not practiced or tested. They just took you a for a little drive, made you reverse park, made you do a hill start, took your money and gave you the magic card. The rest was up to you. .

Sure you were not TAUGHT those skills, but Im damn sure you quickly learned them. IMO people have an absence of mind when driving these days. They dont even have to think anymore. They hop in start the car, dont have to use a choke, warm it up etc. Just hit the key and go. The attitude seems to be "Its ok I've got airbags and abs brakes, stability control etc"

Its not that these features are a bad thing, not at all. The safer our vehicles the better. But I dont believe the training is just not up to standard. These aids should be there for that exact reason, to aid you, not to be relied on

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by 4.0i_SiX

Sure you were not TAUGHT those skills, but Im damn sure you quickly learned them. IMO people have an absence of mind when driving these days. They dont even have to think anymore. They hop in start the car, dont have to use a choke, warm it up etc. Just hit the key and go. The attitude seems to be "Its ok I've got airbags and abs brakes, stability control etc"

Do not see how you learned those skills, most people did not and big crashes resulted. Now the crashes are less severe and the survival rate has increased, a road toll that has halved despite the volume of traffic that has doubled demonstrates this.

I highly doubt the average user thinks "its ok, I can push it harder because ABS and airbags will save me". For every motorist that does, there is probably another that thinks "I can push it harder and I am safer because I am in an old car/4WD, bigger and stronger than most other cars, I will cream them and I will be ok".

[mik]

i dunno, i often wonder about that, i can see people becomeing used to abs and other safety measures then one day during a wet spell driving a borrowed older car and having the no safety car come back on a tilt tray or a tow truck, i have actually seen this happen.

[mik]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Do not see how you learned those skills, most people did not and big crashes resulted. Now the crashes are less severe and the survival rate has increased, a road toll that has halved despite the volume of traffic that has doubled demonstrates this.

I highly doubt the average user thinks "its ok, I can push it harder because ABS and airbags will save me". For every motorist that does, there is probably another that thinks "I can push it harder and I am safer because I am in an old car/4WD, bigger and stronger than most other cars, I will cream them and I will be ok".

funny you mention that, my young brother dragged me out for a spin in his recently aquired 97 v8 soarer, it was very wet out side in Melb suburbia, the first thing he did was demonstrate traction control , he was amazed even under full power in wet doing a left hand turn onto a slippery highway sized road he could`nt put it into a power slide, while this is a great thing, but i can see for sure people driving these computer safety cars beyond their limits with a false sense of security.

[tranquilized]

Ask a non-car person to explain the basics of how ABS, traction control, stability control systems work, and their advantages - many wouldn't have a clue. These people wouldn't even know if their car had these features, let alone being lulled into a false sense of security.

Its only a small group of drivers - some might call them hoons, that might adjust their driving style according to the safety features on board. These people are accidents waiting to happen in any car.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by mik

funny you mention that, my young brother dragged me out for a spin in his recently aquired 97 v8 soarer, it was very wet out side in Melb suburbia, the first thing he did was demonstrate traction control , he was amazed even under full power in wet doing a left hand turn onto a slippery highway sized road he could`nt put it into a power slide, while this is a great thing, but i can see for sure people driving these computer safety cars beyond their limits with a false sense of security.

Just as people do with cars that are not equipped with the same features, I see that every week. This is not a fault of the cars or the technology, it is a fault of human nature and reverting back to old technology will not cure that.

I do believe the balance of the situation is that although in the rare occasion the technology my give potential for a false sense of security and lead to a crash, they save more lives than they take and that is proven.

[70773]

It gets me how many people show concern about the standard of drivers but if you ask have you attended a defensive or advanced driving course the answer normally is I do not need too. I have attend both and sent my daughters to do the same and it is money well spent. To many feel it is their right to get a license when it is a privilege.

I teach OHS at my place of work and one of the replies I got in training was I use to drive like a maniac, now that I have a young family I drive like an old man, it is a shame we do not think about the other driver and what might happen because we feel invincible with our driving. All to often we change our habits when we start a family and then think about what might happen to us and start to drive defensively.

Watch other drivers on freeways the faster they go the closer they sit to the car in front they feel they are good enough to react quick enough. Even Craig Lownes could not stop fast enough to miss James Courtney at Townsville when Garth Tander spun out yet we drive on the roads and think we have quick enough reflexes to stop, it is just not true. Till we get a driver training system that teaches you how to drive and not just pass a driving test we will continue to have bad drivers and accidents it will not matter how good the car that you drive.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by 70773

It gets me how many people show concern about the standard of drivers but if you ask have you attended a defensive or advanced driving course the answer normally is I do not need too. I have attend both and sent my daughters to do the same and it is money well spent. To many feel it is their right to get a license when it is a privilege.

I teach OHS at my place of work and one of the replies I got in training was I use to drive like a maniac, now that I have a young family I drive like an old man, it is a shame we do not think about the other driver and what might happen because we feel invincible with our driving. All to often we change our habits when we start a family and then think about what might happen to us and start to drive defensively.

Watch other drivers on freeways the faster they go the closer they sit to the car in front they feel they are good enough to react quick enough. Even Craig Lownes could not stop fast enough to miss James Courtney at Townsville when Garth Tander spun out yet we drive on the roads and think we have quick enough reflexes to stop, it is just not true. Till we get a driver training system that teaches you how to drive and not just pass a driving test we will continue to have bad drivers and accidents it will not matter how good the car that you drive.

Very well said

[AussieAV]

While I totally agree that there needs to be a lot more training in the area of driver skills for new drivers, I think we are kidding ourselves to think that its a lack of skill that would cause most accidents.

There are an almost countless number of times our eyes are taken of the road every time we drive, from checking the speedo, to looking in disbelief/disgust at Tony Abbott walking down the sidewalk in his speedos.

Most of these distractions take but a fraction of a second, and most of us leave enough room that if anything happens in this split second we have enough time to react. Its when those distractions last a split second longer or we haven't left enough space, that a crash occurs.

Almost all of the accidents I've been involved in have involved me getting hit from behind whilst staionary at lights or a stop sign. It wasn't a lack of skill that caused the other driver to hit me, it was a momentary lack of attention.

This can happen to all of us. I doubt anyone can claim to never have looked anywhere other than the road and traffic ahead. Luckily, most of us drive with an understanding and awareness of more than whats happening in a 20m radius around us. I think this awareness is a larger part of what defines a good or bad "driver". Being able to control a powerslide is more about what defines a good "race driver".

But lets face it, any of us could get distracted for that little bit too long, at the wrong time, in the wrong place. Either that or we are the car next to or in front of the other driver that got distracted. This is when accidents happen, and when we rely on the safety features of our cars. This is when we hope that the safety features of our car are enough to let us live to see another day.

Its not about overconfidence, its about being protected when human nature kicks in. No-one can be 100% focused 100% of the time!

[mrbaxr6t]

did anybody catch topgear the other night with James May in Finland? the Fins honestly take driving terribly seriously, Learner drivers on skidpans etc.. you want to improve the calibre of driver ability they need decent training to get their drivers' licenses not the "can you hillstart" "can you reverse park" please the level we deem acceptable to be driving on the roads is so low its ridiculous a 10 year old with training could pass the driving test in this country...

[Fled74]

Originally Posted by mrbaxr6t

did anybody catch topgear the other night with James May in Finland? the Fins honestly take driving terribly seriously, Learner drivers on skidpans etc.. you want to improve the calibre of driver ability they need decent training to get their drivers' licenses not the "can you hillstart" "can you reverse park" please the level we deem acceptable to be driving on the roads is so low its ridiculous a 10 year old with training could pass the driving test in this country...

I was going to mention that episode but you beat me to it.
The Finns are definitely doing it right when it comes to driver education.

[Cooper69S]

I don't think the majority of people take risks directly because of a belief that their car's safety features will save them - I mean most people don't expect they'll crash at all, let alone need to be saved by their airbag. There certainly seems to be a lot more complacency when driving these days, but I'd suggest that police and media focus on speed and DD as the only likely causes of road fatalities could be more the problem.
I was trying to find some statistics on the number of fatal crashes that occur above or below the posted speed limit, and it seems like there is no data about this at all (at least not that anyone's sharing). I did find one group who claims that something like 98% of fatalaties where speeding is the cause are within the speed limit - speeding is defined by driving too fast for the conditions rather than just staying below the number in the circle. Obviously if that's the case speed cameras aren't going to help because they won't stop unsafe driving below the speed limit.
anyway I don't want to take this thread OT with an argument about the merits or otherwise of speed cameras. I think that modern car safety is definitely reducing the road toll, but I don't believe it's the cause of the complacency or lack of competence for most people - it's obvious that people are still dying on the roads so people are obviously still aware of the dangers. People don't so much have a belief that their car is a safe car, but rather they are a good driver, because they drive at the speed written on the sign. Truth is that half of us are below average drivers by definition, but just about everyone seems to think they're in the top 10%.

Even the limited number of people who start to think they're the stig because they have a car with good brakes and handling - and push it to the limits and beyond - probably would've been the same even in older cars. The new car safety just lets them push the envelope a bit further

[burnz]

threshold braking and a.b.s. do not mix..

and with all the saftey gear now being fitted to heavy vehicle,
the humble truck driver is fast becoming a steering wheel attendant..

[Seduce XR6]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Do not see how you learned those skills, most people did not and big crashes resulted. Now the crashes are less severe and the survival rate has increased, a road toll that has halved despite the volume of traffic that has doubled demonstrates this.

I highly doubt the average user thinks "its ok, I can push it harder because ABS and airbags will save me". For every motorist that does, there is probably another that thinks "I can push it harder and I am safer because I am in an old car/4WD, bigger and stronger than most other cars, I will cream them and I will be ok".

Well for 1 example back 30 or 40 years ago you had to develop better driving skills just to be able to drive the old bad handling vehicles though for the around town slow driver it would not really make any difference however even back then were plenty of young fast drivers & it is these people who I am talking about as if you wanted to drive a bit faster around corners on the also really bad roads we had back then you have to have a bit of learned skill.

How did you learn it by driving the shitboxes on the crappy roads

Another thing is many of us back then would learn to drive in a paddock basher on wet grass & mud & so learn about drifting etc...

You were also much more connected to how the car felt on the road back then as now you are very isolated in many cars (like in a cocoon).

Also with straight freeways these days how can you learn to do mountain type driving as you use to back then, anybody remember what it was like to drive from Sydney to Brisbane across many mountain ranges 30 years ago?

Lastly attitude of many people in general these days as 30 years ago people had more respect for themselves & others.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by WMD351

Yes the licensing standards as well. I've heard that here in Vic the RTA have made it harder to fail because they figure if they don't give someone a license they'll just go out and drive without one anyway, and at least if they have a license it's easier for the authorities to keep on top of the resulting paperwork.

Seriously, it depends on which VicRoads office you go to and which license examiner you have. There is a massive lack of consistency between examiners and VicRoads offices.

The one I went with, took me through the hardest test route and longest possible time, whereas my mate did the test at the same office, yet he got the easy one and his test went for about 15 minutes less than mine.

Another mate got insta failed on the test at the same office, but got 100% on another he did in another office.

Its not just the license test that needs improving, its the whole system, start with driving instructors first, ask 5 driving instructors the same question and you'll have 5 different answers. There's also been fights between driving instructors and examiners because of disagreements.

[pottery beige]

leave cars out of it the nanny state / world we live is conditioning people that it is ok not to think, conform and become stoopid..... stoopid is the new cool.....

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

leave cars out of it the nanny state / world we live is conditioning people that it is ok not to think, conform and become stoopid..... stoopid is the new cool.....

Lupe Fiasco...is that you? Thought you were to busy in your 5.0

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Cooper69S

I did find one group who claims that something like 98% of fatalaties where speeding is the cause are within the speed limit - speeding is defined by driving too fast for the conditions rather than just staying below the number in the circle.

I am not sure where that group is but I do not think the percentage of below speed limit fatalities are anywhere near 98%. To me that sounds like anti speed enforcement propaganda.

Before anyone jumps up and tries to flame me for that comment, consider this fact. Out of all the fatalities I have attended, either single vehicle or more than one involved, at least one was going faster than the posted speed limit by a considerable and obvious amount. I have not been to a single fatality that there wasn't a doubt that one was over the speed limit.

Now law of averages dictates that if the figure was 98% of fatalities occur under the speed limit, I would have been to at least one. I will concede that it is rather environment dependent, in country roads with high speed limits, a large number of fatalities would occur at posted speed limit. In metro areas the majority of crashes with fatalities will occur at higher than posted limits. I work in a metro area so therefore all the fatalities clearly had excessive and illegal speed as a major contributing factor. Having said that concession, many of the major crashes I have attended occurred on motorways with 100 km/h limits and speed was still a large factor. So in my opinion that statistic is overinflated. Even if it was a case of all fatalities on the highway occurred under the limit and most fatalities in the metro environment occurred over the limit, metro fatalities account for too many fatalities for the figure to be anywhere near 98%. I would say at the most that figure would be more like 50% if I was really generous (taking into account my lack of exposure to rural fatalities).

[WMD351]

hmm, couldn't agree more that the standard of driver training in this country appears to be nonexistent. The Finns seem to have a very good system and I think it's a crime that we're negligent in licensing people without thoroughly checking their competence to pilot a ton and a half of steel at 100 kph.
I can't understand how it is that in Victoria simply spending X number of hours behind the wheel makes somebody competent when they might spend all of that time stationary on a gridlocked freeway.
When I first got my license I was sent out to a paddock by the old man and told to cut loose. It was there I learned how to correct a slide (no traction control), brake without locking up (no abs), and what the car was trying to tell me when its weight shifted around (no dsc). I think a lot of people these days simply put their offspring into a new car, pay a driving instructor some money, and figure everything will take care of itself.
The proliferation of automatic cars and licenses is something that also concerns me, I can't understand how someone can not be able to juggle three pedals on the floor, but be competent enough to handle a steering wheel.
I must point out that I in no way think I'm the Stig, (despite what I tell everybody ), but I would like to think that I have the basic tools to drive a car.

[AussieAV]

Originally Posted by WMD351

hmm, couldn't agree more that the standard of driver training in this country appears to be nonexistent. The Finns seem to have a very good system and I think it's a crime that we're negligent in licensing people without thoroughly checking their competence to pilot a ton and a half of steel at 100 kph.
I can't understand how it is that in Victoria simply spending X number of hours behind the wheel makes somebody competent when they might spend all of that time stationary on a gridlocked freeway.
When I first got my license I was sent out to a paddock by the old man and told to cut loose. It was there I learned how to correct a slide (no traction control), brake without locking up (no abs), and what the car was trying to tell me when its weight shifted around (no dsc). I think a lot of people these days simply put their offspring into a new car, pay a driving instructor some money, and figure everything will take care of itself.
The proliferation of automatic cars and licenses is something that also concerns me, I can't understand how someone can not be able to juggle three pedals on the floor, but be competent enough to handle a steering wheel.
I must point out that I in no way think I'm the Stig, (despite what I tell everybody ), but I would like to think that I have the basic tools to drive a car.

Similar for me, spent a fair bit of time after getting my license, on a friends property playing on a large area of gravel. Learnt very quickly how little it takes to get out of control, and eventually how to stop it from happening once I felt the early warning signs. This knowledge got me out of a situation (not of my making) that I'm sure would have had horrific consequences in my first year on the road.

As for the test that got me my license, a complete joke. Went for a short drive, reversed around a corner then straight back to the station for my license. Took less than 10 minutes. That was nearly 30 years ago. Worse still it was my 1st attempt. Guess how cocky I was with all my mates.

I think Driver Training beyond the current reverse parking and hill starts is an essential part of the solution, but as I said before a lot of it comes back to people's attention span. A small amount of skill helped me avoid the accident, and I was lucky I had time to react, but I would never have faced the situation if the other driver had simply been looking where they were going!

We can give drivers all the skills training in the world, but safety advances are just as important because, at the end of the day "you can't fix stupid". This is when the safety features come into their own.

In closing (and to answer to OP);
- I don't think car safety reduces drivers competance, I think its the system that doesn't put enough emphasis on it.
- I don't think we should learn in older cars, because there is more chance that beginner mistakes will end in death.
- I think the safety features are there to help when people run out of skill and/or concentration.

[Bucknaked]

Originally Posted by WMD351

Should people be taught to drive in an "older" car to gain perspective?

I have no idea what you think that will achieve. People of all ages are involved in accidents, including those taught in those old cars which you believe will improve a persons skills. My old man who has been driving for 20+ years longer than me has had more accidents in his 40 years of driving than I've had in my 22 years. I've never had an accident. He's had 6 or 7 that I can remember.

Learning to drive in an older car does not make you a superior driver. Sure they have bad brakes, terrible suspension and poor handling and you learn some skills just getting behind the wheel, but driving those cars do not make you a better driver than someone driving a current model car with a load more torque and horse power. I believe it takes more skill to handle some cars on our roads today which are modern. Just look at the power output we are seeing with some of the performance machines compared to the cars from an earlier era.

[Franco Cozzo]

The government wont EVER introduce skidpan days for new drivers, because it goes against their "anti-hoon" movement.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

The government wont EVER introduce skidpan days for new drivers, because it goes against their "anti-hoon" movement.

Unfortunately you are right on that one, they won't. There is too much attitude that advanced driver training does not increase driver safety.

The simple fact is if driver attitudes could be changed and drivers drove with courtesy, attention and care, all the occasions that require advanced driver techniques (ie slides etc) would be avoided altogether. That is the direction that QLD government driver training is going, less time on the skid pan and more time on the road circuit talking about and demonstrating/practicing following distances, road position, emergency braking/lane change, scanning, lighting, driver position etc. So less time fixing errors and more time preventing the error in the first place and adjusting driver attitudes.

After doing a lot of advanced driving courses, both public and government, I have to admit that I agree the skid pan is only 5% of safe driver training. Crash avoidance and attitude adjustment is the 95%, next time you are on the road have a look at the other drivers with a critical view, the situations their actions lead to and you will see what I mean.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

leave cars out of it the nanny state / world we live is conditioning people that it is ok not to think, conform and become stoopid..... stoopid is the new cool.....

Er.. duh....

Attitude on the road leaves a lot to be desired these days...

[WMD351]

With the aim of improving driver attitudes, I'd like to suggest that all cars have a foot long screwdriver protruding from the center of the steering wheel with the tip positioned one inch away from our chests.
I believe this would improve driver attention to the task at hand immeasurably.