Plumbing Question

[aussiblue]

The cold water braided stainless flexible hose on our kitchen mixer taps decided to fail Tuesday night just before I retired for the night so I have been forced to contort myself under the kitchen sink clearing up the flood waters and replacing both the hoses. The failed hose was only just (10 days) over 6 years old (the warranty period) and failed in what I thought was an odd way with the threads where it screws in to the brass block fitting at the base of tap head corroding so the hose was blown out of the brass fitting. Picture attached showing the crusty "green snot" on the threads as Eric O from South Main Auto would call it. I was aware that the braided hoses on mixers taps had a limited life and needed to be checked regularly but I was expecting that a failure would more likely be a split hose and start as a detectable pin hole leak.

Obviously while the cold water hose was the one that failed the hot water one wasn't going to be far behind. It was lucky I went to get a glass of water before bed and heard the noise of the leak above that of the adjacent dishwasher so the flooding damage was minimised and mostly contained to the one shelf immediately under the sink. I guess the solenoids on the dishwasher, that is fed from the same cold water pipe under the sink, switching on and off was enough pressure variation to find the weak point. The threads in the brass tap fitting head seem Ok and the new stainless hoses with a 15 year warranty (these https://www.bunnings.com.au/kinetic-...-hose_p0422491) have thread that are several mm longer so hopefully it is fixed for now. Nonetheless, I have also ordered a replacement mixer tap that I will install at my leisure in the warmer weather. It's an earlier model of this tap I think that cost me a lot more at the time (well all of $199.99) https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/12473262...Bk9SR8T80Y-ZZA I wonder if using Loxeal sealant (https://www.bunnings.com.au/loxeal-5...esive_p4920450) on the threads originally was a good or bad thing? In any event, I left the new ones naked.



So the questions to the plumbing experts on the forum are:

a) is this a common failure point?
b) Other than replacing them sooner could I have done anything to prevent this and prevent it happening again?

[Citroënbender]

Dry threads, smear of food grade o-ring grease on the rubber, no anaerobic sealants.

It looks like a marine type failure; de-zincified brass. I’d wonder if a steel fastener in contact nearby was getting wet. Could also be low quality hoses.

[Itsme]

Touch wood never had an issue with mine in the house & caravan, over 12 years for the van and about 15 years for the house.

[aussiblue]

Dry threads, smear of food grade o-ring grease on the rubber, no anaerobic sealants.

It looks like a marine type failure; de-zincified brass. I’d wonder if a steel fastener in contact nearby was getting wet. Could also be low quality hoses.

The O rings were greased with HydroSeal tap grease per installation instructions and the threads had Loxeal sealant (the latter not as instructed so the reason I asked). No steel fasteners anywhere I can see; everything appears to be either brass, stainless or rubber. The insides of the hoses are rusty orange coloured bur not build-up like on the threads; perhaps it down to the extremity hard water we have in WA. Interesting that the hot and cold hoses have different coloured rust on the threads too.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Work colleague had a leak on the first floor bathroom of her holiday house. Sadly, it wasn't holiday time, so the leak wasn't found until substantial damage was done (collapsed first floor roof plaster, flooring, walls etc). She never said how much it cost but the project to carry out repairs took around 18 months. I'm guessing the cost was in the 100s of 1000s.

Root cause? A flexible water hose feeding the sink in the ensuite had failed. The insurance company had the opinion that all flexible water hoses should be changed out at a maximum period of 10 years.

[aussiblue]

Touch wood never had an issue with mine in the house & caravan, over 12 years for the van and about 15 years for the house.

I would change them now. I did have a warning advice from my insurer some years ago that failure of such braided hoses both on mixer taps and toilet cisterns were a major cause of insurance water damage claims and that, in addition to regularly checking them and replacing them when the are out of warranty, the stop taps that feed them should be turned off when you go away on holidays. All new braided hoses I have bought in recent years also have a tag on them with a spave to write the purchase date on and a warning saying: "flexible hoses must be inspected every six months and replaced at the end of the warranty period. If any corrosion freying [SIC I think they mean fraying] or leaks are visible this product must be replaced." I have been checking per this tag, but I really didn't think I would need to unscrew them and examine the hidden threads in the tap body.

[aussiblue]

See https://dstdryer.com.au/australian-c...n-humidifiers/ and https://www.9news.com.au/national/ha...9-041b53dc7f2d and https://www.wfa.com.au/hard-soft-water/ etc Perth has some of the hardest piped water in Australia and also the most conductive. The water authority also had to replace the pipe from the main to my meter a few years ago due to a blockage caused by accumulated corrosion from the main so perhaps that was a contributor too.

[danzvtil]

My plumber doesn’t have a problem with these flex pipes per se, BUT insists you get the ones available from reece and not Bunnings, and replace them every 5 years. I also replace the stop valve at the same time, these freeze up due to lack of use.

[aussiblue]

Perhaps the proximity to the dishwasher comes under "Hydraulic Considerations" in this Plumbers Tech Note from the WA Department of Commerce https://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/sites...s_may_2023.pdf but you would think that most kitchen mixer taps would also share the same feed pipe as the kitchen dishwasher (especially those retrofitted to older homes).

I can't find any reference to it now, but I seem to recall at one point the insurance council were pushing for a change in building and/or plumbing standards restricting the use of these hoses to rooms with waterproof flooring and floor waste outlets/drains akin to those in most bathrooms and laundries. It probably died in the face of the current housing crisis and the free for all - blind eyes to regulation compliance happening in the building industry now illustrated by many of the videos on this YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@Siteinspections

[Citroënbender]

So you basically reached end of service life in a particularly harsh environment. Not much to worry about; doubt you’ll do it again.

From memory your HWS is stainless (think you’ve mentioned it). So that ought be OK.

[aussiblue]

From memory your HWS is stainless (think you’ve mentioned it). So that ought be OK.

Nah; it's a Bosch 16P Instantaneous Gas that have their own water body corrosion issues that means I have to monitor replace the gland sleeve every couple of years per https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsYj8ZPmH_s and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg7oAuRCcqY etc.

[aussiblue]

These stops looks like a solution to cover the "Hydraulic Considerations" relating to the proximity of the dishwasher https://plumbingsales.com.au/15mm-ma...ting-mst1.html

High pressure protection for mixer tap cartridges, hoses and appliances also help reduce water hammer and most pipe noises...AVG MAXISTOP Valve 15mm 1/2" MST-1 is a revolutionary new approach to point of use isolation valves incorporating an adjustable pressure limiting function. When it comes to protecting flexible hoses, mixer tap cartridges, fridges and appliances etc from excess pressure ,,,

In any event, at least the house otherwise has copper pipes throughout so, unlike many newer home owners in WA , I don't have to concern myself with failure of Pro-fit polybutylene pipes made by Iplex Australia per https://thewest.com.au/business/cons...lia-c-11607981 and https://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/annou...igation-update and https://www.watoday.com.au/national/...16-p5dx35.html and https://www.polypipenews.com.au/news...s-pb-findings/ etc The only bit of this pex type of plumbing I have, as far as I know, is less than 4 inches that goes from above the roof into my evaporative air conditioning and if that breaks it will simply leak onto the roof tiles and flow into my marine grade aluminium gutters.

[aussiblue]

So this is going on the dishwasher supply https://plumbingsales.com.au/15mm-ma...ting-mst1.html and these on the mixer tap https://floodstop.com.au/shop/

[aussiblue]

Also an interesting discussion https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/thread/9j0k6l69?p=16 both in terms of copper hard tails for mixer taps like https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/13231660...Bk9SR5ym2tibZA and burst proof hoses such as https://www.bunnings.com.au/boston-6...ector_p0294957. Also the comment on Dorf tap hose warranties at https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/thread/9j0k6l69?p=14 and

[aussiblue]

Interesting video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hizg-w0nO48 Seems that the corrosion between the tap body and hose end is not uncommon.

[Citroënbender]

Have you fully repaired the fault now?

[aussiblue]

Have you fully repaired the fault now?

Yes and no. I have fitted the new hoses so the old tap is safely working (albeit checking daily) but I am waiting for the arrival of https://plumbingsales.com.au/15mm-ma...ting-mst1.html and https://floodstop.com.au/shop/ and a new tap.

In the meantime I have found the original receipt for the mixer tap that boasts not only a six year warranty on all parts but having "lifetime guaranteed bust-proof braided hoses". Of course the retailer has vanished the same way as the local retailer of my now holey marine grade aluminium house gutters with the 25 year warranty did (See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvb9HurTz2o ) . There was also no separate manufacturer listed or printed on any of the tap or hose parts or papers just the Wells water mark on the tap/ In fairness the fine print said the warranty was limited to replacement of parts and not damage from failure and admittedly the hoses did not actually burst just corroded at the threads.

I am going to make diary reminder to replace all such hoses in my house every five years in future.

[Rambunctious]

Being a retired plumber I will never have a problem with flex connectors as I changed them back to copper including making my own copper connectors to all mixers.

My guess to the problem on the OP's mixer was installer used the flex hose to screw them into the mixer and twisted/fractured them in the process. Seen it before.

[Rambunctious]

Just an edit to my post above

Warranty on plumbing fittings/fixtures usually only applies if installed by a licensed plumber as per the instructions/packaging.

[aussiblue]

My guess to the problem on the OP's mixer was installer used the flex hose to screw them into the mixer and twisted/fractured them in the process.

No that didn't happen there are no fractures just corrosion on the threads (and yes now I have double checked with a microscope) ? Did you actually look at the photo I posted? My neighbour who is a professional plumber also had a look and thinks it's probably related to our hard water and likely inferiors stainless steel used in the hose ends.

[Rambunctious]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

No that didn't happen there are no fractures just corrosion on the threads (and yes now I have double checked with a microscope) ? Did you actually look at the photo I posted? My neighbour who is a professional plumber also had a look and thinks it's probably related to our hard water and likely inferiors stainless steel used in the hose ends.

I looked at all the pics you put up but none showed the actual damaged hose so please forgive me for attempting to help you.
It won't happen again.

[aussiblue]

I looked at all the pics you put up but none showed the actual damaged hose so please forgive me for attempting to help you.
It won't happen again.

Look again The hoses.jpg picture attached to my first post. This one: https://fordforums.com.au/attachment...9&d=1721461414

In any event why so grouchy; nothing I said invited that response.

Picture attached showing the crusty "green snot" on the threads as Eric O from South Main Auto would call it. I was aware that the braided hoses on mixers taps had a limited life and needed to be checked regularly but I was expecting that a failure would more likely be a split hose and start as a detectable pin hole leak.

[aussiblue]

Another pic showing the full length of the hoses in case that was what you were getting at. But nothing of interest to see here I think; no hose twists or damaged braiding.

[arm79]

I wouldn't put much stock on the warranty period of these things. If you delve into the fine print it will say you must produce a receipt as proof of purchase. Who keeps receipts for that kind of period? They get lost, the print disappears, they can't be read.

So you get all mentally excited over the prospect of a good product based on the warranty, only to find you'll never be able to make a warranty claim.

I found this through Bunnings Methven shower heads. All their products come with a 25 year replacement at a minimum, some stuff lifetime.

When our one failed at 5 years I contacted them for a replacement. They said "show receipt". I said "cant produce a receipt. But doesn't matter because no way were you making this product 25 years ago, so it will easily fall within warranty". They pointed to terms and conditions and "receipt or no replacement".

Just a BS false promise. Never bought one of their products again on principal.

[aussiblue]

I wouldn't put much stock on the warranty period of these things. If you delve into the fine print it will say you must produce a receipt as proof of purchase. Who keeps receipts for that kind of period? They get lost, the print disappears, they can't be read.

Agreed but you nonetheless you cannot but think that something that claims to be a premium product and with a claim of "lifetime guaranteed bust-proof braided hoses" is going to be a bit better than a Ali Baba hose.

I must admit I am now also wondering if this mixer tap https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/12473262...Bk9SR8T80Y-ZZA is actually realy any better than this one https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/38707534...Bk9SR6b5yNqfZA and perhaps I might have saved $150.00.

The good thing about buying online be it from Bunnings or elsewhere is I do always then have an electronic email receipt. But yes the warranty is used as a guide to expected quality rather than with an expectation of making a claim against it. The only claims I have made with Bunnings have been in respect of missing, broken or non working bits on things I have bough there and I have never had an issue getting a refund when the items were returned.

I am not getting my knickers in a knot over any of this either. I feel was really extremely lucky I caught the leak it before any real damage was done and it has taught me a lesson about periodically replacing these hoses well within the claimed warranty period. I was really/mainly just curious about the cause of appeared to me to be a very unusual failure mode and an interesting item for forum discussion.

[mad2]

Originally Posted by arm79

I wouldn't put much stock on the warranty period of these things. If you delve into the fine print it will say you must produce a receipt as proof of purchase. Who keeps receipts for that kind of period? They get lost, the print disappears, they can't be read.

So you get all mentally excited over the prospect of a good product based on the warranty, only to find you'll never be able to make a warranty claim.

I found this through Bunnings Methven shower heads. All their products come with a 25 year replacement at a minimum, some stuff lifetime.

When our one failed at 5 years I contacted them for a replacement. They said "show receipt". I said "cant produce a receipt. But doesn't matter because no way were you making this product 25 years ago, so it will easily fall within warranty". They pointed to terms and conditions and "receipt or no replacement".

Just a BS false promise. Never bought one of their products again on principal.

take a photo of receipt - lasts longer .. i had a pic on me ph for two years in case my mum had issue with a bunnings product.