Wheel wobbles!

GK · 02-09-2006, 02:05 PM

Hi all,

Just got my Maxxis tyres put on last Monday. Wagon was shaking the steering wheel under brakes at highway speeds.

Car was perfect before the tyres were fitted and balanced. What could the wheel wobble be?

I rang the tyre place, they say it's brakes, which I suppose it could be. Perhaps a disc came off (they are very new dba slotteds) and they didn't fit it on properly?

Apart from this, what else? I guess wrong alignment, or dodgy wheel balance?

I'm going back at 2:30pm today, so responses in the next hour would be most helpful.

GK

**Mechan1k** · 02-09-2006, 02:11 PM

Check wheel balance and alignment first.
It's hard to find a place that does a decent alignment.

GK · 02-09-2006, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

Check wheel balance and alignment first.
It's hard to find a place that does a decent alignment.

The other AU had no such worries, so I'll get them to check the wheel balance first, then if that's ok, then the alignment. The car steers straighter than before the tyres were done!

Cheers Mechan1k!

GK

Hords · 02-09-2006, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GK

The other AU had no such worries, so I'll get them to check the wheel balance first, then if that's ok, then the alignment. The car steers straighter than before the tyres were done!

Cheers Mechan1k!

GK

2:30 PM doesn't give you much time, but I'd be trying a quick swap with the wheels on the other AU. If the problem doesn't replicate it would have to be in the balance I guess. Maybe just try the front wheels first as that takes up msot of the braking.

GK · 02-09-2006, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hords

2:30 PM doesn't give you much time, but I'd be trying a quick swap with the wheels on the other AU. If the problem doesn't replicate it would have to be in the balance I guess. Maybe just try the front wheels first as that takes up msot of the braking.

You're right, no time, I've been outside shovelling dirt from a gardening job a few weeks back! LOL!

I'm just about to leave!

Cheers,

GK

HLC · 02-09-2006, 04:24 PM

ok Maxxis tyres no good.

my dad has Maxxis tyres on his BA2 XR8 and they cant get an alignment or a balance right. had the fronts scrub out in around 5000 kilometres. he was spewing. but it was only cheap rubber luckily. his car also vibrates at freeway speeds. so im pretty sure it is the tyres.

and these symptoms only came up after he put the maxxis tyres on. not before.

Rob · 02-09-2006, 04:40 PM

GK, try Browns Wheel Aligners on riverside ave in werribee. They're good, dont be fooled by the small size of the place.

GK · 02-09-2006, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HLC

ok Maxxis tyres no good.

my dad has Maxxis tyres on his BA2 XR8 and they cant get an alignment or a balance right. had the fronts scrub out in around 5000 kilometres. he was spewing. but it was only cheap rubber luckily. his car also vibrates at freeway speeds. so im pretty sure it is the tyres.

and these symptoms only came up after he put the maxxis tyres on. not before.

I have the same tyres on the AU SR and no such issues.

GK

GK · 02-09-2006, 05:23 PM

Ok here's the update.

Front tyres were out, so they were rebalanced while I watched. Vibes still there.

Found buckle in the front left (not much though), so it was moved to the left rear, but the left rear was much worse!

So, rear right was checked (nice and straight), so it was put on the left front. All tyres balanced ok.

Same thing on the way home.

Rang the manager again when I got home, he said to bring it in and he'll put it on the hoist himself. He wants to check out discs and wheel bearings. Need to wait until next Sat though, they closed at 4 today.

He seems a nice enough bloke and I haven't been fobbed off (far from it actually!), and they have tried to help me twice now. They will do so again next week.

Perhaps it helps that I used to teach his wheel alignment guy at VCE level! Only God knows!

We'll see next Saturday.

Here are a couple of questions I'd like answers to and some extra info for you all to ponder.

Info
Car only vibes under braking. Doesn't do it at 60, just 80 and above.
Car steers straight, does go left with the camber of the road after a while but no probs.
The SR sedan has exactly the same tyres and doesn't experience any of these issues.

Questions
1. How buckled do wheels have to be before vibes can be felt?
2. The vibes were not there with the SP3000's fitted. They were pulling left and right like crazy under braking though (tramlining)!
3. Could it be wheel bearings and the new tyres being unworn, have accentuated this?
4. Could it be the buckled rims and the new tyres being unworn, have accentuated this?
4. Could it be a disc(s) being warped and the new tyres being unworn, have accentuated the problem. (Dont think this is the case as it didn't do it before the new tyres were put on).

Any Ideas?
Preferably after a decent pondering of the above info and questions!

:

I think if next Saturday, we find no bearing or disc issues, I will ask for them to put the rims from the SR on the wagon. Is that a reasonable proposition? At least we will be able to rule out the tyres then! If the vibes are gone, I'll be sure it's something wrong with the wagon.

GK

**Mechan1k** · 02-09-2006, 05:28 PM

Have also heard others have issues with tyres not being "round" ... what was it is i read somewhere ... "can't balance a square wheel/tyre".

Maybe it's the quality of the make of the tyre itself and it is out of round from the manufacturer.

Just a thought.

GK · 02-09-2006, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

Have also heard others have issues with tyres not being "round" ... what was it is i read somewhere ... "can't balance a square wheel/tyre".

Maybe it's the quality of the make of the tyre itself and it is out of round from the manufacturer.

Just a thought.

Thought appreciated!

GK

JC · 02-09-2006, 05:52 PM

To eliminate the wheels as the issue, simply swap all 4 over between the sedan and wagon ("simply" - I know it will take 60 to 90 mins, LOL!). If the issue ramins on the wagon, then it's not the wheels. If the issue transfers itself to the SR, then it is the wheels.

It could also be a sticking caliper if it only happens upon application of brakes. Mine shudders like crazy braking at any speed. It could be slightly warped discs - the new blalance in the tyres would accentuate this, as any they are now running "true" while the disc is warped.

I'm going to pay the $40 to get the discs machined (I get it cheap if I take them off the car first) - maybe yours just need a light skim too?

GK · 02-09-2006, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC

To eliminate the wheels as the issue, simply swap all 4 over between the sedan and wagon ("simply" - I know it will take 60 to 90 mins, LOL!). If the issue ramins on the wagon, then it's not the wheels. If the issue transfers itself to the SR, then it is the wheels.

It could also be a sticking caliper if it only happens upon application of brakes. Mine shudders like crazy braking at any speed. It could be slightly warped discs - the new blalance in the tyres would accentuate this, as any they are now running "true" while the disc is warped.

I'm going to pay the $40 to get the discs machined (I get it cheap if I take them off the car first) - maybe yours just need a light skim too?

As always, many thanks for your well measured thoughts JC!

I will ring the manager on my return and ask him to do a clean wheel swapover, that will get me going in the right direction, before I need to contemplate spending any moula! If the wobbles move to the sedan, I'll ask for new tyres perhaps.

GK

beaky41 · 03-09-2006, 10:19 AM

quote "So, rear right was checked (nice and straight), so it was put on the left front. All tyres balanced ok"

GK my maxxis tyres (MA-V1's) are directional so you cant swap like that unless they were wrong in first place

bodes-sh · 03-09-2006, 10:30 AM

it definitely sonds like something to do with brakes, considering it only does it under braking....as JC said, a caliper could be sticking. usually a buckled wheel doesn't affect it that much, but if the tyre is not fitted on the rim straight then maybe...if you have time check the front calipers, if one is seizing then it would be a great time to do a write up on it. wheel balance usually vibrates all the time, not just under braking. good luck in finding the problem

**Stav** · 03-09-2006, 11:30 AM

I had the same problem but my tyres had flatspots from a trusted mechanical shop doing handbrakies at 110 kmph..rats.

XR6Stu · 03-09-2006, 12:16 PM

I used to, and still do have the vibrating issue when braking from 65 upwards, which I have been told by the mechanic at work is a steering rack issue and have a decent vibration from front right when travelling between 95 - 105. Not sure what this might be, but have had a tire be 'out of round' before, and it feels very similar. Moved it to right rear, and vibaration followed to right rear. Im still trying to hunt down the source of it all, but will let someone know as soon as I do!

GK · 10-09-2006, 07:37 PM

Here's an update.

Took the car back to Bob Jane today, the manager (also a mechanic) was going to check out the bearings as he was adamant it wouldn't be the tyres.

Got there 10:05am, manager's day off isn't it? Tried calling, no answer.

They were also flat chat, told by a guy I hadn't seen before to come back at 12:00! I was really hacked off! Couldn't do that though, as the family had a lunch commitment, which went until 4:30pm.

Got home, changed over front tyres (only had time to do the fronts), the wobble in the wagon was still there, might have been a tad worse, and a slight wobble appeared in the SR sedan. Nothing like the wagon though.

I quickly add that although both cars steer straight and there is only wobble under brakes, the wobble is ONLY felt through the wheel, NOT the pedal.

Does that help anyone make some more judgements on this problem?

What should I do next do you think? I'm quite perplexed over this one. Should I get the disks on both cars skimmed? Should I get the bearings checked out?

Anything else that it could be?

Your help is appreciated.

GK (AKA Perplexed! LOL)

XR6-VCT-2000 · 10-09-2006, 09:25 PM

I recon the disc will just need a light machine ;) , when u get a wheel alignment and disc machined first off / or from factory / nothing is ever ' spot on ' balanced , its all very close and within tollerance but un-noticable / and thus the disc sorta wears to the balance of the wheel slightlly , until sometimes when a new set of newely balanced rims (which are probably on the opposite end of the tollerance margin to what the old wheels were balanced ) , can make the pre-worn discs feel way worse than they are.

GK · 10-09-2006, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6-VCT-2000

I recon the disc will just need a light machine ;) , when u get a wheel alignment and disc machined first off / or from factory / nothing is ever ' spot on ' balanced , its all very close and within tollerance but un-noticable / and thus the disc sorta wears to the balance of the wheel slightlly , until sometimes when a new set of newely balanced rims (which are probably on the opposite end of the tollerance margin to what the old wheels were balanced ) , can make the pre-worn discs feel way worse than they are.

Whilst I understand all this, the discs were not replaced long ago. They are dba slotteds, and I'd be surprised if they need machining.

Funnier things have happened though!

Thanks for your thoughts!

GK

JC · 10-09-2006, 10:28 PM

GK - when I brake hard in my XR8, the vibration is only felt through the wheel - the pedal feel is rock solid. And I know my discs need machining - put it this way, last time they were like this, a light skim got them back into round and no more shudder under heavy braking.

GK · 11-09-2006, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC

GK - when I brake hard in my XR8, the vibration is only felt through the wheel - the pedal feel is rock solid. And I know my discs need machining - put it this way, last time they were like this, a light skim got them back into round and no more shudder under heavy braking.

Cheers JC.

GK

auvct · 11-09-2006, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GK

Whilst I understand all this, the discs were not replaced long ago. They are dba slotteds, and I'd be surprised if they need machining.

Funnier things have happened though!

Thanks for your thoughts!

GK

Hey GIK. i had DBA slotted discs on my fairlane with ultimate pads and after only 10K they were doing the same and worn.
I have been told that ultimates need heat to work properly and as this is a daily driver, i was wearing the front discs out.
I swapped them back to a set of standards off ebay with bosch premiums and the shuddering has gone.
Some one had told me that on slotted disc can get hot spots and warp on the outer end of the slots on the discs.
Wheather its true or not i dont know.
But you should be able to rock ur wheel back and fro to see if theres any play in the wheel bearing.

black ute · 11-09-2006, 06:17 PM

My work ute had the same thing.
New discs, problem solved (135 000km out of old ones)

The Monty · 11-09-2006, 06:45 PM

I have a buckled rim, it was on the front but was changed to the back. All was good, they said it was really buckled, and after they put it on the back, I never noticed it. But now the DBA slotted that is on that rear side of the car has warped again, and I was told that a buckled rim will warp the rotors. Not sure if this is correct, but it took about 2 months too rear its ugly head back up.

GK · 11-09-2006, 07:42 PM

Thanks for all the posts everyone.

I have decided to get the discs all round lightly skimmed. I suspect that I might need new discs on the rear also. I'll do this next Monday or so (school holidays) and see how that goes.

Sghould I get standard discs for the rear or go slotted also. The thing is, I have dba slotteds on the front, and the brakes place only does rda slotteds. If I went slotteds on the rear, they would be 2 different brands. I'm a little uneasy about this.

What are your thoughts about the potential mix and match?

Cheers all.

GK

JC · 11-09-2006, 09:27 PM

I have DBA slotteds on the front of the wagon, and RDA slotteds on the back. On the XR, I have DBA slotteds all round. To be honest, the minute I drove the wagon after fitting the rear RDA slotteds, it was a different animal. Pulled up heaps better than just the slotteds on the front, and even allowing for AU2 brakes being better than AU1, it pulls up way better than the XR. So good, in fact, that the next set of slotteds I get for the front of either car will be RDAs. 2/3 price of DBAs and just as good, IMO. Mine were $200 delivered - you can get them cheaper, just not in Canberra!

For all those ready to bag RDAs, remember, I am using them on the streets, not on a track.

GK · 11-09-2006, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beaky41

quote "So, rear right was checked (nice and straight), so it was put on the left front. All tyres balanced ok"

GK my maxxis tyres (MA-V1's) are directional so you cant swap like that unless they were wrong in first place

The tyres were taken off the rims, and the rims swapped around. My mistake in calling the rims "tyres" LOL!

You were right in pointing that out!

Are your tyres going ok BTW?

GK

GK · 11-09-2006, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC

I have DBA slotteds on the front of the wagon, and RDA slotteds on the back. On the XR, I have DBA slotteds all round. To be honest, the minute I drove the wagon after fitting the rear RDA slotteds, it was a different animal. Pulled up heaps better than just the slotteds on the front, and even allowing for AU2 brakes being better than AU1, it pulls up way better than the XR. So good, in fact, that the next set of slotteds I get for the front of either car will be RDAs. 2/3 price of DBAs and just as good, IMO. Mine were $200 delivered - you can get them cheaper, just not in Canberra!

For all those ready to bag RDAs, remember, I am using them on the streets, not on a track.

JC,

How is it that you have a good answer for almost every problem I pose?

If the price is good, I'll go the RDA's on the rear. The Bendix advance pads will still be fine I'm sure.

Many thanks yet again.

GK

JC · 11-09-2006, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GK

JC,

How is it that you have a good answer for almost every problem I pose?

If the price is good, I'll go the RDA's on the rear. The Bendix advance pads will still be fine I'm sure.

Many thanks yet again.

GK

Maybe something to do with the fact that I've had AUs (5 of them) since 2000/2001, and always second hand. You get used to "problems" as such.

I have to say though, that diagnosing a wobbly wheel(s) without driving the car is extremely difficult, so i can only point you to what fixed mine, and hope it's the same for you. I would hate to advise something that end ups costing you money only to have the problem remain.

This is not an official disclaimer, but it is! :monkes: