FWD in Large cars? - Page 4

GTENVY · 29-10-2010, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Read some really strange comments lately, regarding the benefits of FWD over RWD.
Can someone knowledgeable explain what these benefits are, without resorting to clichés, urban myths, or gobbledegook, and without foaming at the mouth and insulting all RWD drivers.

I accept that in many ordinary circumstances a well-designed FWD is just as effective as RWD, especially with traction control, power steering etc, but I am still left asking why?
Yes, many European makers who have been doing FWD for 50 years are still streets ahead of Falcons in terms of handling, but I don’t see that as being due to FWD.

My XR4 is FWD, I love it to bits, and it works well, but turn off the DSC and it will spin it’s wheels of the line and be completely uncontrollable.

In a compact 4cyl, FWD saves weight and space, as it makes for a very compact package up front, and obviously there’s no tunnel or humps. Compare something like a Yaris to a 1970’s Corolla, and you can see just how far FWD packaging has come.
But as far as I can see, that is it’s only advantage? There are still many inherent obstacles to overcome, and I just don’t see the need for it in big cars.
Jump into a Camry/Aurion and you’ve still got a massive centre consul, so I’m not sure how much space you really gain in the front.
The majority of cars are already unbalanced to the front, and FWD simply exacerbates that, especially when the engine is pushed out in front of the front wheels. Contrary to what some believe, when you accelerate hard, most of the mass of the car is born by the back wheels. Which is why every race car, drag car, speedway car, etc is RWD. (Again, I accept that this is probably irrelevant for 90% of applications, I’m just making a point.)

I imagine that some weight is saved, even in a large car, by eliminating the tailshaft, and combining the gearbox and diff. Perhaps it also enables them to share components and development with their smaller stablemates?
Is it perhaps easier to assemble FWD?

Is it perhaps telling that the Americans (whose idea of a sports car is a Lounge Room powered by a 500ci V8) happily accept FWD for their large cars, but in Europe most of the large saloons are still RWD?

Going by the OP I think we're getting a little off track. BTW anyone who thinks they can fit five adults comfortably in a small FWD is dreaming. I'm not a big bloke and neither are most of my mates but my ex had a 5 door 2005 Focus, she was driving and the girlfriend in the front with me, the girlfriend's other half and a mutual mate in the back and it was anything but comfortable.

I have driven mainly large cars, mostly RWD and acouple of FWD. Drove a rental Toyota Aurion in the rain from Carnarvon to Perth and it was the most uncomfortable I have ever felt when driving a car bar being a learner.

I believe as its already been said, FWD in large cars is for many reasons but none of them are about performance. Toyota is a perfect example of this.

EvilBert · 29-10-2010, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6Runner

Imagine if these cars where transferred to either RWD or AWD. How many times have you thought "Imagine if this thing was RWD/AWD". Because if it was, it would make it a whole lot better. All you FWD guys really need to stop deluding your self that FWD are awesome performance machines. FWD is only made because its cheap to make.

So much ignorance and lack of knowledge in this thread. If some of you guys are going to spout off, at least through in some facts.

Just out of interest, regarding the quoted comment above, Ford did test AWD configurations on the Focus RS test mule around the ring. The reason they stuck with FWD is because the AWD setup was NO FASTER around the track than the the FWD....

Fair enough if you prefer RWD, I'm cool with that, and obviously it is the preferred format in motor racing (and NO, not all racing cars are RWD), but seriously some of the ignorant bogan comments I've read here just make some of you guys look silly.

And that's probably a good reason why I've been a member here since 2008, but haven't posted until this week.

wrongwaynorris · 29-10-2010, 10:45 AM

Just out of interest, regarding the quoted comment above, Ford did test AWD configurations on the Focus RS test mule around the ring. The reason they stuck with FWD is because the AWD setup was NO FASTER around the track than the the FWD....

They obviously did not teat in the wet then did they , and it's not just about a lap time but the driving experience , you would step out of the AWD car a lot more relaxed than the FWD .

Fair enough if you prefer RWD, I'm cool with that, and obviously it is the preferred format in motor racing (and NO, not all racing cars are RWD), but seriously some of the ignorant bogan comments I've read here just make some of you guys look silly.

Care to back that statement up by giving us a few examples .

bingoTE50 · 29-10-2010, 10:50 AM

[QUOTE=WILDB]I'm 208cm and I've driven and have been a passenger in Mondeos and find them to be roomier in terms of head and legroom than my FG Falcon and a BA I used to own.

Mental note to self - Do not **** Wild B off ....

**DJM83** · 29-10-2010, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6Runner

I think somebody may have said this before, that most of the people out there driving everyday aren't exactly what you would call car enthusiasts. They just sit there getting from A to B. They don't care if its FWD, RWD, or 1 wheel drive. As long as it goes.

But the smaller % of us that actually are car enthusiasts and care about performance, and pushing the limits and having some fun, we care whether its FWD, RWD, or AWD. There are good reasons to get AWD, everybody knows the advantage of AWD, there are also plenty of reasons to get RWD. But why would somebody seeking performance want to get a FWD?

To all those who drive XR5 Turbo's and swear by its awesome handling characteristics, or those who think the Ford Focus RS is a great car... Well no, they are let down by one thing, FWD. Imagine if these cars where transferred to either RWD or AWD. How many times have you thought "Imagine if this thing was RWD/AWD". Because if it was, it would make it a whole lot better. All you FWD guys really need to stop deluding your self that FWD are awesome performance machines. FWD is only made because its cheap to make.

EDIT: I am only talking about performance here. Because FWD does have its ergonomical benefits.

You really dont have any idea do you. I gather you have an XR6 or some description yeah?
Cheap yeah eh? I could have purchased a new XR6T when i bought my 5, why did i buy the 5? Better all round car and better built, not a one trick pony.
Mate id love to see the aforementioned car keep up on a mountain pass.
At a recent track day a mate had his 5 there, it monstered an $85k HDT commodore around Lakeside, he also had numerous RWD owners approach him asking how could, brake later, get on the power soon and maintain a higher mid corner speed.
Ive owned many a RWD car (All were besides the 5) and i can see the benefits of RWD, but dont write off a FWD because you are clearly sticking with the stigmata the all FWD is rubbish, ignorant.

EDIT- can we keep the RS out of this thanks

smoo · 29-10-2010, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilBert

So much ignorance and lack of knowledge in this thread. If some of you guys are going to spout off, at least through in some facts.

Just out of interest, regarding the quoted comment above, Ford did test AWD configurations on the Focus RS test mule around the ring. The reason they stuck with FWD is because the AWD setup was NO FASTER around the track than the the FWD....

Fair enough if you prefer RWD, I'm cool with that, and obviously it is the preferred format in motor racing (and NO, not all racing cars are RWD), but seriously some of the ignorant bogan comments I've read here just make some of you guys look silly.

And that's probably a good reason why I've been a member here since 2008, but haven't posted until this week.

You must be good at selective reading. Or just missing the fact that FWD are purely for packaging/economy/penny pinching as mentioned dozens of times above. Go and drive a BMW.

**DJM83** · 29-10-2010, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoo

You must be good at selective reading. Or just missing the fact that FWD are purely for packaging/economy/penny pinching as mentioned dozens of times above. Go and drive a BMW.

Incorrect, read my post

smoo · 29-10-2010, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJM83

Incorrect, read my post

Sorry, fact is that fwd cars are designed/built for those reasons and nothing more. I'm not saying there aren't good performance models to come off base economy models (integra, civic type R, Renault Clio RS, Golf GTi etc). I can't think of any ground up design where a maker has built a fwd performce car from scratch, especially in this day and age of platform sharing... If fwd is too good to be true maybe Nissan should have based the 350/370Z on the Maxima platform... yerr right.

**DJM83** · 29-10-2010, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoo

Sorry, fact is that fwd cars are designed/built for those reasons and nothing more. I'm not saying there aren't good performance models to come off base economy models (integra, civic type R, Renault Clio RS, Golf GTi etc). I can't think of any ground up design where a maker has built a fwd performce car from scratch, especially in this day and age of platform sharing... If fwd is too good to be true maybe Nissan should have based the 350/370Z on the Maxima platform... yerr right.

Oblivious, as i said i could have bought an XR6T for the same money as my 5. My 5 is smaller. So there goes that idea. Even a mondeo XR5T/Titanium is more then a foulcan

EvilNemo · 29-10-2010, 11:07 AM

Hahahaha I am finding this all very amusing lets put some money where the mouths are hey I would like to see some of you guys out at the next lakeside track day in street trim just like me and see who comes out on top. Just so you all know the video posted earlier in this thread was me. The person DJM mentioned a few posts back was me. Lets take it to the track...

bingoTE50 · 29-10-2010, 11:07 AM

Hey Dallas , compared to the TE/TS ? you had ,is the XR5 a lot better handling wise ?
My TE50 1 , to date ,probably is the best handling car I have had. I could not get it to step out without a power slide ,and definitely no understeer.

mondo_broady · 29-10-2010, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6Runner

Mate, how much weight difference is there between XR4 and XR8? How about compare XR4 to Mazda MX5. I know who I would go for through this 'mountain pass'.

But that's illegal anyway. If I was to bet between XR4 and XR8 (both stock) on a proper race track, I would go the XR8 any day and all day. You are just kidding your self mate... Have you ever been in an XR8? I would guess you haven't.

Edit: Spelling

hahahahaha is an MX5 a large car??

for the record, yeah i have been in an XR8 when i did an advanced driving course. i've also owned a commodore V8 in the past.
in fact of the 21 cars i've ever had, about half were RWD and one a AWD.

my comments re: the 8 & 4 were in response to Glavas' continued claims that a small FWD 4 cyl could not be fun. I will state again, i would back my XR4 against an Xr8 in a run up a winding mountain pass. if you've ever driven spiritedly up some mountain twisties, you'll know just how much fun that is.

there's no doubt the 8 would eat the 4 on a track, but you could be damn sure the 4 driver would still be having fun. although somewhere like the driver training track at Marulan in NSW, i don't think there'd be a hell of a difference.

if you want evidence of how good some FWD's have become, take a look at the video i posted earlier in this thread. it shows a mate's moderately modded XR5 on a track day at Lakeside on the gold coast. in the vid he easily takes a VL Brock Director V8 and then later is overtaken by an ex-V8 supercar but after being blasted on the straight, holds his own through the next series of corners (supposedly where torquesteer is an issue) before being blasted on the next decent straight... he was running 1:06. craig lowndes was running 1:01 on the same track in his group a "supercar" in '96 a year or two before they stopped racing there...

the major problem is RWD guys are prejudiced against the "bum draggers" and refuse to admit how good they have become compared to the old days...
again like i said before, it's a bit like

EvilNemo · 29-10-2010, 11:18 AM

BTW here are the time sheets from my track day and a pic of my car so you can see that the number on the time sheet matches the car. While it maybe be unfair to compare me to commonwhores as they are a piece of rubbish at the best of times you will note that in my group there was 1 other FWD and he was just a fraction slower than I was. He had a qauife I did not. The only car that was quicker than me in the group was an EX- V8 supercar. On the whole day I looked at the time sheets of other groups and out of about 30 cars there was maybe 5 or 6 cars quicker than I was and they were all race preped cars. Considering I was in street trim I think the FWD held it's own pretty damn well.

martinijosh · 29-10-2010, 11:20 AM

Everyone stop your **** ********. No gives a **** about your XR5T. It is NOT a large FWD car. This thread is meant to be about fwd vs. rwd in the sedan market.

"errdy gerdy ma xr5t is quicka har har you losars wit ur bogan ancient rwd lololol"

Tools.

smoo · 29-10-2010, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJM83

Oblivious, as i said i could have bought an XR6T for the same money as my 5. My 5 is smaller. So there goes that idea. Even a mondeo XR5T/Titanium is more then a foulcan

A bit of a pointless comparo of RRPs with imported and local models. It is a fact that fwds are cheaper to produce whether these savings are passed onto consumers or not, but at the end of the day those reasons above are why we have fwd cars, not because some hot hatch/performance derivative can handle better than a rwd family sedan (for a niche market that wont pull in big numbers).

mondo_broady · 29-10-2010, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6Runner

I think somebody may have said this before, that most of the people out there driving everyday aren't exactly what you would call car enthusiasts. They just sit there getting from A to B. They don't care if its FWD, RWD, or 1 wheel drive. As long as it goes.

But the smaller % of us that actually are car enthusiasts and care about performance, and pushing the limits and having some fun, we care whether its FWD, RWD, or AWD. There are good reasons to get AWD, everybody knows the advantage of AWD, there are also plenty of reasons to get RWD. But why would somebody seeking performance want to get a FWD?

To all those who drive XR5 Turbo's and swear by its awesome handling characteristics, or those who think the Ford Focus RS is a great car... Well no, they are let down by one thing, FWD. Imagine if these cars where transferred to either RWD or AWD. How many times have you thought "Imagine if this thing was RWD/AWD". Because if it was, it would make it a whole lot better. All you FWD guys really need to stop deluding your self that FWD are awesome performance machines. FWD is only made because its cheap to make.

haha i haven't laughed so much in ages... so "enthusiasts" only drive RWD?? the 5000+ members of the aussie XR5 forums must all be doing it wrong then... and i'm sure the owners of shiny new RS focii really feel "let down"...

Quote:

Ford XR6 vs Toyota Camry V6

The ones in bold are the winning cars when it comes to performance.

haha you said XR6 and Performance in the same sentence (well almost)...

mondo_broady · 29-10-2010, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinijosh JWM I6

Everyone stop your **** ********. No gives a **** about your XR5T. It is NOT a large FWD car. This thread is meant to be about fwd vs. rwd in the sedan market.

"errdy gerdy ma xr5t is quicka har har you losars wit ur bogan ancient rwd lololol"

Tools.

my car is an XR5T and is a Large car. Mondeo XR5T (as large as Foulcan). i tried making on topic comments way back about 3 pages ago but got overrun by bogans drifting around round-a-bouts... talk about tools...

martinijosh · 29-10-2010, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mondo_broady

haha you said XR6 and Performance in the same sentence (well almost)...

And? ANYTHING can have a measure of performance, whether it be good or bad is a different story.

There is a lot of self bloated arrogance going on in this thread. The mods need to do their job here instead of getting up people for the smallest insignificant crap.

Reminder: the thread title is "FWD in Large cars?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by mondo_broady

my car is an XR5T and is a Large car. Mondeo XR5T (as large as Foulcan). i tried making on topic comments way back about 3 pages ago but got overrun by bogans drifting around round-a-bouts... talk about tools...

I was posting specifically about the Focus XR5T - sorry for not being clear on that.

Wretched · 29-10-2010, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinijosh JWM I6

And? ANYTHING can have a measure of performance, whether it be good or bad is a different story.

There is a lot of self bloated arrogance going on in this thread. The mods need to do their job here instead of getting up people for the smallest insignificant crap.

Reminder: the thread title is "FWD in Large cars?"

Yet you in your first post opened with the "...To anyone who says FWD feels no different to RWD... stop, you're kidding yourselves." line

Other responded to your blanket statement in terms of FWD in a whole range of applications (large sedan, hatch back, medium sedan, performance, etc). The XR5T focus is just one of them.

There is nothing wrong with what is being discussed. The only issue is the level of maturity shown by some (including you, what was with the tool comment).

mondo_broady · 29-10-2010, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinijosh JWM I6

And? ANYTHING can have a measure of performance, whether it be good or bad is a different story.

There is a lot of self bloated arrogance going on in this thread. The mods need to do their job here instead of getting up people for the smallest insignificant crap.

Reminder: the thread title is "FWD in Large cars?"

I was posting specifically about the Focus XR5T - sorry for not being clear on that.

mate the first bit is obviously a wind up...

and second, you're right the OP has completely been forgotten about. but if you take the time to read from the start you'll see that point was lost on the RWD proponents first (references to i30 and corolla's etc..) which has rallied the FWDer's...

most of the back and forth banter has all beed done tongue in cheek (well i'd hope so anyway)...

of the people posting here, Will has stepped from an XR5 to an XR6T and myself I went from an FG Falcon to the XR5 Mondy, so i think we are pretty well qualified to comment/compare...

bingoTE50 · 29-10-2010, 11:40 AM

Martinjosh ,what is a large car.A EH Holden was a large car in 1964 and ferried families around,but in real terms it is not as big as a Corolla inside. Our Mazda 3 allows adequate space for four. I am 188cm my son is 190cm plus the two girls , so I really do not see your insistance on a large car. Would a fwd Falcon sell - not in my opinion.
Will the 2.0 litre Falcon sell ,not in my opinion. Why ? Because there are a number of us who only want a six cylinder rwd car .The whole argument is flawed because a comparison of fwd and rwd is impossible because of the vehicles on offer .You only limited by money. My own take is that ultimately rear wheel drive is favoured by the Ferraris and Lambo's etc of the world ,and it probably speaks volumes for what is better.

martinijosh · 29-10-2010, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wretched

Yet you in your first post opened with the "...To anyone who says FWD feels no different to RWD... stop, you're kidding yourselves." line

Other responded to your blanket statement in terms of FWD in a whole range of applications (large sedan, hatch back, medium sedan, performance, etc). The XR5T focus is just one of them.

There is nothing wrong with what is being discussed. The only issue is the level of maturity shown by some (including you, what was with the tool comment).

My words were "To anyone who says FWD feels no different to RWD... stop, you're kidding yourselves."

They don't feel the same. How could you claim they do? I base all my opinions from my own personal experience as anyone should, from my own personal experience - FWD and RWD don't feel the same to drive. Funnily enough, because they're different.

The tool comment was me expressing my frustration at how off topic this thread has become because I was interested in the original topic.

I'm younger than most members here and probably will appear to be a lot less mature than a lot of people here, but atleast I'm not scared to voice my opinion for fear of the ban hammer.

**DJM83** · 29-10-2010, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinijosh JWM I6

My words were "To anyone who says FWD feels no different to RWD... stop, you're kidding yourselves."

They don't feel the same. How could you claim they do? I base all my opinions from my own personal experience as anyone should, from my own personal experience - FWD and RWD don't feel the same to drive. Funnily enough, because they're different.

The tool comment was me expressing my frustration at how off topic this thread has become because I was interested in the original topic.

I'm younger than most members here and probably will appear to be a lot less mature than a lot of people here, but atleast I'm not scared to voice my opinion for fear of the ban hammer.

Yeah and it shows in your posts aswell.

Thread closed