Living with the Powershift - Long term transmission review

Caydus · 03-11-2012, 08:32 PM

After living with this transmission on almost a daily basis, I thought I may share some thoughts about it so far.
My Fiesta WT LX Powershift rolled off the production line in October 2010 in Thailand and I picked it up late January 2011.
I couldn't get a manual because of the other drivers I share the car with, so this was the best compromise. It was the best and most 'fun' car to drive in its class. The transmission, coupled with Ford's implementation of electric power steering and the beautifully sorted chassis sold me.

Early Issues

There were a couple of hiccups early in the life of the transmission, at around 10,000km, the seals around the input shaft of one of the clutches sprang a leak and greased up the dry clutch. Ford had to replace one of the clutches.

There were the usual DSG toothing problems too, low speed shakes in traffic at light throttle, the long delay in choosing gear on hard acceleration immediately after braking, etc.

21 Months later

21 months in and 30,000kms later of mostly city driving (average speed 34kph), everything seems to have settled and sorted itself out. No strange noises, silky smooth shifts and absolutely no jerkiness.
The car is almost always in the right gear to do what I need it to do and makes the car feel more powerful than it actually is, compared to cars with even greater power/weight with regular slushboxes.

Whether it be in slow moving city bumper to bumper traffic, or going up and down Sydney's motorways late at night with minimal traffic, this gearbox is great.

Doing a launch from standstill at full throttle to whatever the speed limit is results in harsher upshifts with only just hint of power interruption jerkiness, but given that the little 1.6 engine is running close to redline, I have yet to see any other transmission other than another DSG to be able to do the same.

I can absolutely say that this gearbox has learned my way of driving and I, it.

The future

Looking ahead, the future is uncertain. Will the gearbox last? I can't really say.
Of course I'd love to have this transmission last all the way up to the 150,000km service point at least, but I don't know if that's just wishful thinking.
Looking at the woes of the VW MK5 Golf's DSG is scary to say the least. $5k+ for a full replacement if there's catastrophic failure that's not covered by comprehensive insurance or warranty when it runs out is not exactly something to look forward to.
I suppose this is the drawbacks of having such an amazing transmission in such a cheap car.

Technical bits

The Powershift transmission we have in our Fiestas is unique amongst DCT transmissions. In that it doesn't need an oil pump, oil cooler or oil temperature sensor. Instead it relies on a 'virtual sensor' to monitor oil temperature, using data from various other sensors inside the gearbox.
It shifts to 'encourage' the driver to not do things that may damage the clutch and overheat it, like holding the car stationary on a slope with the throttle alone.
At least this is what I understand from what I’ve read of this transmission, I could be wrong. Specific technical explanations are rare and far between.

All this seems to point towards cost savings, to put a usually expensive DCT into an inexpensive car. It is also, most likely the reason why this iteration of the Powershift transmission does not and will not get a manual shift gate or shift paddles on the steering.

In Focus · 03-11-2012, 09:01 PM

Good review. My wife drives a Fiesta LX Powershift, and the only issues she's had is that a couple of times (both times on a roundabout) it's decided to charge off and do its own thing, and she had to hang on and steer until it "calmed down".

Seems as if the slowing, then accelerating is what often confuses these boxes. The 7 speed DSG in my Fabia can also get fooled, but in general it shifts far more efficiently - and correctly - than I could, manual or not.

Franco Cozzo · 03-11-2012, 10:28 PM

Has anyone pulled a DSG gearbox apart yet? I'm curious to see how much harder it is to work on then a traditional slushbox auto, which is already hard enough compared to a simple 5sp manual.

Fiesta_Man69 · 04-11-2012, 04:13 PM

Was your box one that required a reflash?

Have you made enquiries as to what a supply and fit new box will cost once out of warranty? (which would have a big impact on whether the car was kept for a long time or sold off before any costly issues I imagine).

As I've stated before a mates Mk5 Golf Gti dsg box went, outside warranty, one dealership wanted near $10K for supply and fit of a new one, think he ended up around the $7K mark elsewhere....

Anyways, a manuals always in the right gear, everytime, it doesn't hunt, shudder or need to learn a style of driving. And is cheaper (clutch is $1430 at Ford, half that elsewhere mind) when something goes bang. One of the many benefits of being able to drive a manual.

Caydus · 04-11-2012, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fiesta_Man69

Was your box one that required a reflash?

Have you made enquiries as to what a supply and fit new box will cost once out of warranty? (which would have a big impact on whether the car was kept for a long time or sold off before any costly issues I imagine).

As I've stated before a mates Mk5 Golf Gti dsg box went, outside warranty, one dealership wanted near $10K for supply and fit of a new one, think he ended up around the $7K mark elsewhere....

Anyways, a manuals always in the right gear, everytime, it doesn't hunt, shudder or need to learn a style of driving. And is cheaper (clutch is $1430 at Ford, half that elsewhere mind) when something goes bang. One of the many benefits of being able to drive a manual.

Not yet, though it could be worth looking into it from a Ford dealer. I'll shoot out a few emails.

Manuals have their good and bad points. Given you've already done it for me, I don't need to further elaborate on the good points. But as i said earlier in my original post, I'm not the only driver of the car, or else I would have gone manual.
But on the other side of the equation, DSGs are so much smoother than manuals, even with an extremely experienced stick shifter at the helm. Torque interrupt is almost only noticable by the change of engine pitch.
Wet clutch DSG with paddle shifts and an auto mode are the way of the future once reliability issues are sorted out.

wombat66 · 04-11-2012, 08:33 PM

Great review. I have had my Powershift Zetec since May. I am happy with it too. I discovered that it doesn't like nearly coming to a complete stop and then accelerating hard. It made a fair bit of noise but didn't really go anywhere. I allow for this now and love driving it. Once you get used to the driving style that suits it, and it gets used to you it's great. I've never worried about the replacement price of a new transmission or any other part in any car I've driven.

Fiestaman · 06-11-2012, 07:08 PM

Future input will be interesting as the gearboxes age and get some high kilometeres on them. As in a manual car the clutch takes up power on taking off from stop via clutch friction. Same happens to a lesser degree on each gearchange. The smooth changes are using clutch friction to absorb revs from one gear change to the next.
Like a manual clutch, with spirited driving, the clutch(es) will wear.

Interesting point is to see at what distance the auto clutches fail and what the cost of replacing them are. Manual clutches are fairly simple and (fairly ??) cheap to replace.

Caydus · 08-01-2013, 03:30 PM

So another 2000kms down the line and I'm hearing the grindgrind again. Low throttle, low gear and doesn't matter if it's hot or cold anymore.

caprispecial · 09-01-2013, 03:19 PM

Weve had our fiesta for 2 years and 30000k now also and agree with the op report. Ours has given no trouble at all and seems like it could go the distance. In fact the last time i saw the dealer was when we took delivery as i do my own servicing.

kevino · 13-01-2013, 09:11 PM

When making a hill start in a powershift say at traffic lights, say prior to the light going green do you leave it in drive or neutral?

Caydus · 14-01-2013, 09:24 AM

Drive

There's a hill start assist system built into the Fiesta itself, not the tranny.

If you hold the car on a 5% or more slope stationary for more than a few seconds (off the top of my head) the brakes will then stick for a few seconds after your foot goes off the pedal until you start moving again.

If you are at a complete stop as well while in Drive, the Powershift automatically disengages the gears. There is no reason to go in Neutral on a Powershift in day to day driving.

Russ · 14-01-2013, 10:50 AM

I'll still keep my MAN pedal transmision, the rest of them needing wheels can catch the bus

kevino · 14-01-2013, 09:51 PM

Yes russ the fiesta is for my wife.
I drive a 6 speed manual TDCI Focus.

In Focus · 15-01-2013, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

I'll still keep my MAN pedal transmision, the rest of them needing wheels can catch the bus

A bit 20th century mate, like hand cranks.

Russ · 15-01-2013, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by In Focus

A bit 20th century mate, like hand cranks.

Haha, I'm not quite that old, but I still prefer some of the old stuff more than all this latest technology, I used to enjoy getting my hands dirty working on an engine or gearbox

Nowadays I'm lucky to know how the bonnet opens

especially on the Focus

Caydus · 15-01-2013, 10:52 AM

It's much more fun than your regular slushbox, but won't ever be as fun as actually controlling the gears with a big stick in the floor.
It's not as great as a slushbox for walking pace city traffic, but hey, it beats a manual for that.

Without paddles, this really is a halfway point between traditional autos and manuals without the massive pros or cons of either.

T4ME · 15-01-2013, 11:08 AM

So the box doesn't need a service until 150k is that right?

caprispecial · 15-01-2013, 03:17 PM

It says in the sevice manual that the oil doesnt need changing unless used under continuous heavy conditions such as towing, taxi etc.
I was reading on a uk site recently that the new models coming soon will be recommended to change the trans oil every three years.

T4ME · 15-01-2013, 03:51 PM

I am a firm believer that our everyday conditions are just as strenuious as a cab,in fact we have allot more cold starts than them tbh.

Sealed for life is a joke and costs the 2nd and 3rd owners the most money.

50k max on a new car for trans oil,my BTR cops it every 10k but gets raced every now and then.

Oil analysis is the only way to find out exactly when oil should be dropped.

madmelon · 01-02-2013, 10:23 AM

I work at for a company that designs transmissions. Our current project is a competitor for the ZF6HP but we've been working on a DCT concept for the last year or so. A DCT inside is actually just a manual gearbox with two input shafts- one inside the other. Much simpler and cheaper to make than an automatic. THe clutch, on the other hand, is fairly complex and the electronic controls (and hydraulics for hydraulically actuated systems) are equivalent to a modern automatic.

I'd love to hear any more that people have to say about the PowerShift or any other dual clutch transmission they've experienced- both for insight at work and the fact I'm trying to get my girlfriend into a WT Fiesta and after several transmission debacles with a Honda Jazz, she needs reassurance.

Russ · 01-02-2013, 10:40 AM

Reassure her that controlling the shaft forward and back by hand would be much better

madmelon · 01-02-2013, 01:57 PM

Walked right into that one, huh...

Caydus · 08-02-2013, 09:22 PM

Was driving it around a fair bit today. I reckon the problem is definitely heat related. Happens when I've been driving hard, but if I start granny driving, the problem seems to go away. Not sure if it's the same problem.

At this point, I'm pretty fed up, I'm thinking pretty hard about upgrading to a Golf GTI instead.

Alan D Segal · 25-02-2013, 04:07 PM

We have a 2010 Fiesta WS with the 4 speed auto. After 2 1/2 years and 30,000km it is going strong and still feels like new. Thanks for your update OP. Interesting to hear about the powershift, because when we bought ours the powershifts were just coming out.

Caydus · 05-03-2013, 10:18 AM

Hey guys,

Looks like it's coming to an end for me over here.

Because of the problems before with the transmission, the current grinding when the transmission is hot and also current issues with DSG Dry Clutch applications in cars.
Hearing lots of bad things coming out of the VW 7 speed dry clutch system as well. I've pretty much decided keeping this car outside of warranty is going to be rather silly.

My little Fiesta's going on the market in the next week or so.

The car's been great in every other respect, fuel efficient, plenty of space, good looking and solid in all other respects, going to be sad to see it go.

I'll still hang around here for a bit after though

Fiestaman · 05-03-2013, 10:34 AM

Yeah - has come to an end for me too! Just can't trust the gearbox over long term and my car is also for sale.
However the prices are so low for a second hand Fiesta that I am virtually going to have to give it away to get rid of it.

Good handling car and would have been great with 5 speed conventional auto.