Covid 19 -

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

Nice move, so if that guy tests positive your Dr is now a close contact... and possibly you as well.

Not by the national definition of a close contact:

https://www.health.gov.au/health-ale...close-contacts

Interestingly, WA has a different definition:

https://www.healthywa.wa.gov.au/Arti...19-definitions

So much for nationalised rules.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

Not by the national definition of a close contact:

https://www.health.gov.au/health-ale...close-contacts

Interestingly, WA has a different definition:

https://www.healthywa.wa.gov.au/Arti...19-definitions

So much for nationalised rules.

You don't understand the reality of the situation, do you?

[russellw]

Data valid as at 00:00 GMT February 1st 2022.

38,199 new cases for Australia and 75 deaths so the CMR is 0.149%.

NZ recorded 204 cases and 0 deaths for a CMR of 0.319%.

The UK recorded 112,452 cases yesterday and 92,368 the day before for a CMR of 0.895%. There was a major adjustment for data from May 2021 after it was identified cases were misreported. This added about 750k cases to the UK total since the pandemic began and reduced the overall CMR by a fair bit.

360,121 new cases in the USA yesterday and 1,865 deaths sees CMR at 1.194%.

Other notable points:
Global cases pass 381M;
Global deaths pass 5.7M, the last 50k in 5 days;
Europe passes 128M cases;
Asia passes 101M cases;
UK passes 17M cases although 750k of those were the adjustment;
Italy passes 11M cases;
Spain oases 10M cases;
USA passes 76M cases;

Kiribati (169);
Bhutan (312);
Solomon Islands (303);
Barbados (786);
El Salvador (954);
Egypt (2,291) – the 8th consecutive day;
Oman (2,828) – the previous high (2,529) on 21/6/21;
Azerbaijan (5,223):
Bahrain (8,173);
Palestine (8,616);
Jordan (17,781);
South Korea (18,333);
Georgia (24,201);
Romania (40,018);
Réunion (45,474);
Turkey (102,601); and
Russia (125,836) – the 12th consecutive day

... all recorded new highs; those in blue for the second consecutive day and those in red for a third or more consecutive day.

Indonesia moves above the 90th percentile for the 10 day period and Cabo Verde drops below.

[arm79]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

You don't understand the reality of the situation, do you?

image

I think one of the greatest realisations to come out of this pandemic is how little power the Federal government has over the states and with the powers the states do have, they can basically go it alone.

[cs123]

Originally Posted by arm79

I think one of the greatest realisations to come out of this pandemic is how little power the Federal government has over the states and with the powers the states do have, they can basically go it alone.

The feds only have those powers which the states bequeath to them. Not the other way around.

Imagine if the feds were running the entire show. What a disaster that would have been.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by cs123

Imagine if any of the various Australian governments, either Federal or State, were running the entire show. What a disaster that would have been.

Corrected for accuracy

[arm79]

Originally Posted by cs123

The feds only have those powers which the states bequeath to them. Not the other way around.

And here I thought the Australian Constitution provided for what was a Federal responsibility and what is a state responsibility, and delegated powers as such.

I don't think anyone would have ever thought the constitution allowed state politicians to turn Australia into 8 separate mini countries. I think think anyone would have thought the politicians would ever have considered it, let alone enacted it.

Originally Posted by cs123

Imagine if the feds were running the entire show. What a disaster that would have been.

You mean as compared to the disjointed cruel unchecked sh*tshow that we have now? As opposed to a national approach and direction?

Like how after nearly 2 years my family still can't properly mourn Mum's passing or celebrate her life with friends because my poor sister is locked in WA while the rest of us can travel free? Not that it would matter because even though we are spending nearly $1000 on entertainment that state does not allow dancing in public venues. What's the use of paying for that Elvis impersonator that Mum wished us to have when no one can get up and dance to the music she loved? But if we held it here in Qld, no problems...

Or that here in Queensland we have to wear a mask while seated watching a movie, but other states don't? Or that certain states mandated masks to be worn when driving alone in the car, when others didn't? Or the states that mandated that maks must be worn while checking your letter box, but not when mowing the lawns, while others didn't?

Anyone read how Chairman Dan wants to mandate compulsory boosters to be considered "fully vaccinated". Claimed it was discussed and approved by a group containing Brett Sutton... But only for Brett Sutton, Victorian CHO, to come out and say "no I wasn't consulted nor ever asked the question"...

Yeah... How lucky we are with the power hungry clowns we have now.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by b0son

Hard to when he wont cite his sources. The fact that you happily take him at face value while expecting me to provide evidence for my statements, says to me you've drunk the cool aid and there's little point trying to convince you.

Now I wonder how we got on this topic? It wasn't by me proclaiming my complete and utter acceptance of whatever Fox News publishes as you offensively suggest.

Don't really care what convinces you mate, but just like when Leesa makes ill informed comments am happy to call you out in the same camp.

Originally Posted by b0son

They also continue to vote against gun control while their kids continue to die. And you hold them up as some sort of shining example....

Your offensive accusation of me holding "them" up as shining examples indicates you are a little bit upset.

Awww shucks...kids are dying in the streets, it's all Rupert Murdocks fault. by extension....

[zilo]

Originally Posted by Metdevil

Nowhere in that transcript does he ever actually quote any guideline. Not even a paraphrasing, just a baseless claim with nothing to support it. Carlson doesn't mind adding in a clip of Fauci making a faux pas when there's a chance for a Gotcha, but for supposed 'evidence' about unsafe vaccines for children, there's nothing?

Yea, red flags all over this one from mis/disinformation 101.



He also says this: "The data we just cited come from the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System — VAERS — which is managed by the CDC and the FDA."

And this is from VAERS: "a report to VAERS does not mean that a vaccine caused an adverse event"

Also Tucker: "VARES has received a lot of criticism over the years, some of it founded. Some critics have argued for a long time that VARES undercounts vaccine injuries. A report submitted to the Department of Health and Human Services in 2010 concluded that "fewer than one percent of vaccine adverse events are reported" by the VARES system."

He's basically just said this is misinformation, but he's put the spin on this 'undercount' being deliberate by the CDC. Unfortunately, the reality is...
"VAERS is a passive surveillance system, meaning it relies on people sending in reports of their experiences after vaccination.... VAERS accepts reports from anyone, including patients, family members, healthcare providers and vaccine manufacturers."

VAERS (Or "VARES" to Fox, apparently), is not a vaccine safety watchdog. It's a passive tool to the FDA, CDC, or manufacturers for finding patterns.
There's also this:
"Any health problem that happens after vaccination is considered an adverse event following immunization. An adverse event can be a true adverse reaction, also known as a side effect, that is related to the vaccine, or a coincidental event that happened following vaccination."

VAERS also comes with this very important disclaimer:
"While very important in monitoring vaccine safety, VAERS reports alone cannot be used to determine if a vaccine caused or contributed to an adverse event or illness. The reports may contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental, or unverifiable. In large part, reports to VAERS are voluntary, which means they are subject to biases."

So any death following vaccination can be reported, by anyone, to VAERS. You could walk out of the clinic and be hit by a bus and Fox News would warn the public on the dangerous side effects of the vaccine on your behalf. They would quote the knowingly less-than-statistical source of VAERS as 'statistics' and then use the unreliability of those non-statistics to blow that out of proportion by implying that these make up only 1% of the actual figure. That, to me, is not news worthy...

So sure, Fox hasn't come right out and said 'we are anti-vax and you shouldn't get the vaccine', their producers are too smart to do that. But this is very clearly scaremongering designed for that same effect. Let's not kid ourselves of that.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/en...ers/index.html
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/en...cts/index.html
https://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html

Sorry, too many links, too long a post...but could probably find a counter argument for all your points....if it was on topic.

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by cs123

The feds only have those powers which the states bequeath to them. Not the other way around.

Imagine if the feds were running the entire show. What a disaster that would have been.

The constitution was updated to give the feds more power in one health area, quarantine. When this pandemic hit, they ran a million miles and handed it to the states....


Ironically, that was one area where they actually did do a good job in when they finally built Howard springs. The people that ran it cost a lot of money though from what I hear.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

The constitution was updated to give the feds more power in one health area, quarantine. When this pandemic hit, they ran a million miles and handed it to the states....


Ironically, that was one area where they actually did do a good job in when they finally built Howard springs. The people that ran it cost a lot of money though from what I hear.

No it wasn't. The states and territories agreed to run hotel quarantine at the start despite it being a federal responsibility because it was part of public health and they saw advantage in doing so and/or thought the feds would not be able to manage it.

Additionally to this it was agreed that the states and territories would foot the bill for their residents and then the rest was split pro rata amongst them all which both QLD and WA are refusing to pay to GSS.

Ever since they have deflected blame to the feds for any bad outcome and expect to wedge the feds on the costs of their own restrictions

[arm79]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

No it wasn't. The states and territories agreed to run hotel quarantine at the start despite it being a federal responsibility because it was part of public health and they saw advantage in doing so and/or thought the feds would not be able to manage it.

Additionally to this it was agreed that the states and territories would foot the bill for their residents and then the rest was split pro rata amongst them all which both QLD and WA are refusing to pay to GSS.

Ever since they have deflected blame to the feds for any bad outcome and expect to wedge the feds on the costs of their own restrictions

Spot on!

As far as I know the Australian Constitution can only be altered by a referendum and it requires a super majority to gain approval.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-...ralia/13070108

A deal was struck between Prime Minister Scott Morrison and state and territory leaders.

The states and territories agreed to run hotel quarantine as part of their broader responsibility for public health, despite it being a federal role under the constitution.

The states also agreed to fund most of it.

You might find that surprising given the usual fights over money. But the states give a number of reasons why they were happy with this arrangement.

They needed Canberra to use its Centrelink systems to distribute income support to casual workers who might be holding down multiple jobs and, as a result, may be spreading the virus....

The only question ever left in my mind was "If it was a Federal responsibility, then why were the states so eager to take over that responsibility? Surely they would fight tooth and nail to avoid it." My only conclusion was that they felt there was some benefit in it for them. They they could do things how they wanted however they deemed fit.

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

No it wasn't. The states and territories agreed to run hotel quarantine at the start despite it being a federal responsibility because it was part of public health and they saw advantage in doing so and/or thought the feds would not be able to manage it.

Additionally to this it was agreed that the states and territories would foot the bill for their residents and then the rest was split pro rata amongst them all which both QLD and WA are refusing to pay to GSS.

Ever since they have deflected blame to the feds for any bad outcome and expect to wedge the feds on the costs of their own restrictions

Not disputing the fact that they agreed. Not disputing the states probably saw a chance to prop up their hotel industry. But fact is, it was their (Feds) responsibility.

If a CFO went to a CIO and said his finance team will develop and install a piece of software because they liked it so much, and the CIO agreed, and the software crashed the organisation, who is ultimately accountable?

Originally Posted by arm79

" My only conclusion was that they felt there was some benefit in it for them. They they could do things how they wanted however they deemed fit.

We might find out if/when minutes of the national cabinet is made available. Court has ruled that these minutes should be made available, but FOI requests from a senator keeps getting blocked. Maybe a royal inquiry is needed.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

Not disputing the fact that they agreed. Not disputing the states probably saw a chance to prop up their hotel industry. But fact is, it was their (Feds) responsibility.

If a CFO went to a CIO and said his finance team will develop and install a piece of software because they liked it so much, and the CIO agreed, and the software crashed the organisation, who is ultimately accountable?



We might find out if/when minutes of the national cabinet is made available. Court has ruled that these minutes should be made available, but FOI requests from a senator keeps getting blocked. Maybe a royal inquiry is needed.

They are being held accountable despite it being agreed to. It should have been the short to medium term solution.

The states wanted all the control until it cost too much and got out of hand and then wanted to flick the dog**** over the fence. Then they fall back to it's not our responsibility

National cabinet decisions are not binding. It's a forum to achieve consensus but even when they do some go their own way. The minutes would be interesting to clarify.

[arm79]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

If a CFO went to a CIO and said his finance team will develop and install a piece of software because they liked it so much, and the CIO agreed, and the software crashed the organisation, who is ultimately accountable?

If the CFO said "I will do it and take all responsibility for the implementation and running", then the CFO.

Because the CIO wouldn't be stupid enough to allow it to happen if the CFO didn't take all of the responsibility.

[PHANTMXR6]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

Ironically, that was one area where they actually did do a good job in when they finally built Howard springs. The people that ran it cost a lot of money though from what I hear.

Yeah nah. Howard Springs was a construction camp for the Ichthys gas project well before covid came along. NT gov were lucky with covid timing to pay for the dormant camp for a while.
Who knows what the future of it will be though….

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by arm79

If the CFO said "I will do it and take all responsibility for the implementation and running", then the CFO.



Because the CIO wouldn't be stupid enough to allow it to happen if the CFO didn't take all of the responsibility.

If you brought your car to an engine builder to get engine work done, and the suspension specialist next door walks in and said "hey let me have a crack, it'll benefit me cos I'll learn something, and I'll take responsibility", and the engine builder agrees, then you drive out and the engine blows up, who are you going to hold accountable?


Bigger question is, whats going to happen in the next pandemic? The Mickleham set up suggests states will run it again.

[GTMOND]

Originally Posted by b0son

It's perfectly logical. The vaxxed get the carrot (freedom), the unvaxxed get the stick (restrictions). We got delta under control by getting people vaccinated. There was a lot of resistance at the time if you recall, most notably in the construction sector.

If we had a substantial portion of the population unvaxxed, hospitals wouldnt be coping. That would mean that my daughter would be managing her illness with ineffective painkillers instead of having the surgery she did last week.

I'm fine with your 'freedoms' being trampled on for her sake, any day of the week.

We got Delta under control as most of the country was in lockdowns and restrictions at the time. The vaccine was supposed to be 95% effective against catching the virus, that was totally inaccurate. Now we're told it may help you stop getting severe illness. And by the way I'm no antivaxxer, I seriously just have a little hesitancy, as the gold post's just keep moving. So pfizer makes an omricon variant of the vaccine, do you take it as well.
Please tell me you would start to say enough is enough. We are born with an immune system for a reason, how about letting it do some work instead of trying to make a bandaid.
Also most people who have died have had severe underlying conditions, that's a fact.
As I said the gold post's keep moving, but no one in the Media seem to ask any questions of the medicinal companies. When they have an indemnity against them for any long term implication's, that's another worry.
Yes you will say I'm just another nutter, fact is I'm just very hesitant with this vaccine and I have just had my Booster, do I want any more. No thankyou. I'm nearing 50, but have chosen a healthy lifestyle so I have no medical conditions what so ever. Rant over.

[russellw]

Originally Posted by GTMOND

We got Delta under control as most of the country was in lockdowns and restrictions at the time. The vaccine was supposed to be 95% effective against catching the virus, that was totally inaccurate. Now we're told it may help you stop getting severe illness. And by the way I'm no antivaxxer, I seriously just have a little hesitancy, as the gold post's just keep moving. So pfizer makes an omricon variant of the vaccine, do you take it as well.
Please tell me you would start to say enough is enough. We are born with an immune system for a reason, how about letting it do some work instead of trying to make a bandaid.
Also most people who have died have had severe underlying conditions, that's a fact.
As I said the gold post's keep moving, but no one in the Media seem to ask any questions of the medicinal companies. When they have an indemnity against them for any long term implication's, that's another worry.
Yes you will say I'm just another nutter, fact is I'm just very hesitant with this vaccine and I have just had my Booster, do I want any more. No thankyou. I'm nearing 50, but have chosen a healthy lifestyle so I have no medical conditions what so ever. Rant over.

So many inaccuracies in one mini-rant.

None of the vaccines (there isn't just one) were ever claimed to be 95% effective against you getting COVID variants that were prevalent at the time - I've posted the actual figures claimed here before (which differed for our two main vaccines). What they did claim was ~95% (Pfizer) and ~87% (Astrazeneca) effective against serious illness or death for those variants.

The goal posts don't keep moving - the virus has evolved and thus the efficacy of the vaccines has also changed. The claimed efficacy was for variants up to and including Delta but they have proven less effective against Omicron, particularly as their benefit is not as long lasting as might have been hoped thus the need for boosters.

It isn't even true to say that most of the deaths are amongst those with underlying co-morbidities. Yes, they do make up about 70% of the deaths in those countries with mature health systems but the 30% is still 1.5M people globally that were otherwise healthy enough.Indeed, age has proven to be a bigger indicator with 81% of Australian deaths occurring in the over 70's.

Whether we need different vaccines for different strains remains to be seen but the flu jab that has been around for decades is different almost every year without people screaming from the rooftops that it's a menace to society.

Originally Posted by GTMOND

We are born with an immune system for a reason, how about letting it do some work instead of trying to make a bandaid.

So I gather you're never going to get cancer? You might be immortal.

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

If you brought your car to an engine builder to get engine work done, and the suspension specialist next door walks in and said "hey let me have a crack, it'll benefit me cos I'll learn something, and I'll take responsibility", and the engine builder agrees, then you drive out and the engine blows up, who are you going to hold accountable?

I think you got the answer why it was handed over to the states - they all wanted to do it differently and control everything.

Using your analogy here, you have an engine builder that has to get 5 different external parties to agree on how they want the engine to perform - 1 demands a lumpy idle, 1 wants topend power, 1 wants torque down low, 1 wants fuel economy and 1 wants it to be a hybrid. It is impossible to give them all what they want, so you let each build their own motor and THEY are all individually responsible for their engine performs.

[slowsnake]

In reply to GTMOND, I am 69 yrs old and very severely immunodeficient, I had my Pfizer shots including booster, and will have another, and another and another, if I die it won't be from Covid but some other simple disease, but I will be vaccinated, as I am the flu every year, and TB, plus tetanus!

And it's not for me, it's to protect others who are unvaccinated or vaccinated!

[Tassie f100]

Originally Posted by leesa

So I gather you're never going to get cancer? You might be immortal.

So Covid vax has what to do with cancer??

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by tweeked

I think you got the answer why it was handed over to the states - they all wanted to do it differently and control everything.

Using your analogy here, you have an engine builder that has to get 5 different external parties to agree on how they want the engine to perform - 1 demands a lumpy idle, 1 wants topend power, 1 wants torque down low, 1 wants fuel economy and 1 wants it to be a hybrid. It is impossible to give them all what they want, so you let each build their own motor and THEY are all individually responsible for their engine performs.

Well there you go. All the more reason why abdicating quarantine responsibility to the states and territories during a pandemic was dumb. Maybe clever if you didn't want the political risk. The constitution didn't pick out that one particular responsibility for no good reason.

7 different ways of doing things. At the very least, as the accountable party, there should have been oversight. Ok, you want to run it? Fine, but here are the policies you operate under - facilities need to be of x standard, people you hire needs to be of x standard. Governance 101.


In your analogy, the customer ultimately just needs a reliable engine that will last. Head mechanic should have said, go build how you want to, but it needs to last at least 500,000kms, weigh no more than 200kg, fit in a BA and run on pump fuel.

[slowsnake]

I know Eastern state folk don't care what happens in WA, some care but others dont!
This was in my morning paper, so I went onto the net to get a copy from ABC News, 15 hours ago!

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/10079...rom%20%251%24s

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

So Covid vax has what to do with cancer??

It wasn't about the vax, it was about the immune system and letting it do some work. If our immune systems were infallible then why do we get cancer?
One of the biggest alternative beliefs seems to be about letting our immune system handle it but it's like they've never considered their immune system might actually let them down. If an unaided immune system was impenetrable, people wouldn't get cancer.

That aside, I don't want to move those heavy gold posts so maybe that one is slightly off-topic.

[slowsnake]

Originally Posted by leesa

It wasn't about the vax, it was about the immune system and letting it do some work. If our immune systems were infallible then why do we get cancer?
One of the biggest alternative beliefs seems to be about letting our immune system handle it but it's like they've never considered their immune system might actually let them down. If an unaided immune system was impenetrable, people wouldn't get cancer.

That aside, I don't want to move the gold posts so maybe that one is slightly off-topic.

I think you are correct in your assumptions Leesa!
I also believe that cancer and other diseases, illnesses are caused to some degree by "karma"
I know that my statement may sound silly to some folk, but I believe in reincarnation and I believe that karma is the cause of all pain and suffering.

I am allowed to have this viewpoint, as you have yours and other folk theirs, but as you know I has my left lung removed, due to tumours which were caused by breathing asbestos fibres in the 70's, now I being a smoker and was a confined space welder, both which cause COPD, but in my favour is the fact my lung was pink?....by rights, according to thoracic surgeons my lung should of been a dirty charcoal grey.

Cancer is a rotten disease, but so is Type 1 Diabetes, especially in young kiddies, what a terrible thing being skin pricked and injected every day for the rest of your life.
All these things affect our bodies immune function, but to blame smoking and too much sugar is wrong, it just is what it is, a disease which some get and others dont

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by slowsnake

I know Eastern state folk don't care what happens in WA, some care but others dont!
This was in my morning paper, so I went onto the net to get a copy from ABC News, 15 hours ago!

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/10079...rom%20%251%24s

If schools follow covid safe procedures then its generally pretty safe for the kids. My nephew (grade 2) and niece (kinder) have been back to school now for a while, in a hot zone, in the US. They get tested twice a week at school by their teachers. Every other day my sis will get alerted that there has been positive cases detected. The other week a kid on the same table as my niece tested positive, but luckily didn't spread to any others.

Originally Posted by slowsnake

I think you are correct in your assumptions Leesa!
I also believe that cancer and other diseases, illnesses are caused to some degree by "karma"
I know that my statement may sound silly to some folk, but I believe in reincarnation and I believe that karma is the cause of all pain and suffering.

I'm not touching that one with a barge pole, all I'll say is that I wildly disagree.

[russellw]

Australia
NSW records 11,632 cases in the current period and the 10-day average growth rate increases to 0.9909 from 0.9581) while the actual line remains above the predictive trend line.



VIC records 12,157 cases in the current period and the 10-day average growth rate decreases to 1.0146 (from 1.0204) while the actual line remains above the predictive trend.



The NT (1,201) set a new daily high (2/2).

Here is the predictive trend graph for three States based on cases since Omicron was identified which, for our purposes, will be taken as December 1st.