VFACTS - July 2024

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by prydey

Getting back to car sales, I have noticed more and more Cupra models in recent times.

Initially I thought it was another cheap Chinese marque but soon discovered it was neither cheap nor Chinese.

Yet another member of VAG.

Started as subsidiary of SEAT or something but is now it's own brand.

For the price, I'm surprised how many I see around. Have others noticed similar in other states?

Was interested in the Cupra Born even though I hate VAG with a passion,

It weighs about as much as my old 7 series, which is a 5.1M long luxo barge,

How you can make a Golf sized hatch weigh that much is hilarious.

Have seen a few on the road, they look good

But it's 1900kg and under powered, with an expensive price tag.

I think for me I'll be waiting for a Tesla Model 2 to come along

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by kevino

Wouldn’t Maverick and Bronco not cannabilise Ranger Everest sales thus throwing the Thailand factory under the bus?

Ford Australia was actively looking at getting at least one of those vehicles a few years back
just as supplier shortages were becoming a continual problem but nothing eventuated.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by prydey

Yeah, there seems to be a lot of overlap with most of the VAG cars. Got to wonder how they can make it work but I guess each brand is essentially a separate business.

I guess the separate brands are seen as incremental sales, looks like over 300/mth for Cupra brand

[kevino]

Originally Posted by prydey

Yeah, there seems to be a lot of overlap with most of the VAG cars. Got to wonder how they can make it work but I guess each brand is essentially a separate business.

Perhaps they get (government) build subsidies in the different countries these are built.
VAG Germany Mexico S Africa
Cupra -Spain (?)
Skoda- Czech Republic

[kevino]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Was interested in the Cupra Born even though I hate VAG with a passion,

It weighs about as much as my old 7 series, which is a 5.1M long luxo barge,

How you can make a Golf sized hatch weigh that much is hilarious.

Have seen a few on the road, they look good

But it's 1900kg and under powered, with an expensive price tag.

I think for me I'll be waiting for a Tesla Model 2 to come along

Renault Megane E tech
1600kg

Waits for flames about French cars

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by prydey

Yeah, there seems to be a lot of overlap with most of the VAG cars. Got to wonder how they can make it work but I guess each brand is essentially a separate business.

And yet, Ford struggle to make vehicles with the steering wheel on either side, or see value in pursuing more volume from vehicles that would easily sell outside of the US market. Both aspects are a mere formailty to the likes of Toyota, Hyundai, Kia, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, the entire VAG group, Mazda.............................................

Originally Posted by kevino

Perhaps they get (government) build subsidies in the different countries these are built.
VAG Germany Mexico S Africa
Cupra -Spain (?)
Skoda- Czech Republic

Correct.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

And yet, Ford struggle to make vehicles with the steering wheel on either side, or see value in pursuing more volume from vehicles that would easily sell outside of the US market. Both aspects are a mere formailty to the likes of Toyota, Hyundai, Kia, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, the entire VAG group, Mazda.............................................



Correct.

When you have glasses on with a focal length that ends at Hawaii.,..

[prydey]

Even as possibly Ford's biggest apologist on this forum I have to admit it does seem lazy to just pull out of the competitive segments.

I understand for the Australian market given we're a tiny island with a small population but to pull out of Europe does, from the outside admittedly, seem like they can't be bothered putting the effort in. The products, while no longer market leading, are still good products selling in reasonable numbers.

I understand emissions policy in Europe does not bode well for the future of ICE vehicles so perhaps ford can't be bothered pouring money in to development especially if the return has a limited time frame.

I do think Europe will support BEV vehicles much better than Australia

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by prydey

Even as possibly Ford's biggest apologist on this forum I have to admit it does seem lazy to just pull out of the competitive segments.

I understand for the Australian market given we're a tiny island with a small population but to pull out of Europe does, from the outside admittedly, seem like they can't be bothered putting the effort in. The products, while no longer market leading, are still good products selling in reasonable numbers.

I understand emissions policy in Europe does not bode well for the future of ICE vehicles so perhaps ford can't be bothered pouring money in to development especially if the return has a limited time frame.

I do think Europe will support BEV vehicles much better than Australia

Also why Dearborn is stepping in with more control over Ford Europe who were given a lot of autonomy.
Looks like head office is very unimpressed at the decline in sales occurring in Europe and want change.
I have now idea what if any impact that will have on future vehicle supply but we can hope for change..

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Shame that Ford pulled out of everything except one or two segments,

The whole shamozzle around Ford Europe ****es me off the most because Ford Europe made next level small cars, no one else comes close with driving experience and how they stop, turn and go.

Throttle response that reads your mind, tiniest movement of the steering wheel and the car moves.

Just majestic cars,

Then head office decides to take to it with an axe, and cut their strength of Ford Europe.

No more Fiesta, Focus, Mondeo, assume their engineers went with them too.

Originally Posted by smoo

The same can be said for the Falcon. Pretty much nothing that offered the same level of driving dynamics, engine performance and comfort that wasn’t compromised for the price.
But some accuse those of living in the past and to get with the times if they point it out.
Now we’re stuck with dead boring car based SUVs across the board. Touted as decent vehicles because of the touch screen size or the ability to keep itself between two white lines to make up for drivers wandering attention from the mind numbing drive.

Catching up with thread here, you got it in one smoo. And Franco is correct too, it sucks when that unique product you like gets the chop. Immense boredom in the replacement process, drop 50K for something you don't want?

Was off with the US market last night and CDJR is in real trouble, to an extent the big 3 are stockpiling unsold inventory on dealer lots as well as hiring space nearer the factories, the consumer there has snapped after covid pricing and won't pay $110K US for a Grand Wagoneer (ship them here! Oh, left hand drive). A moment of reckoning is occurring in their dealers and I remember from reading that inventories piled up in late 1928 but it took until the next year for the market to realise this. EV resale in the US is armageddon at present, and if all the growth that went with the inflation reduction act comes in for a fall, that's a classic capital misallocation bubble just as the GFC was with houses.

I do wonder if the US flooded the world with it's unsold domestic inventory, like China is doing, if it raining pickups and ultra huge SUVs would make Australia great. In the regions at least.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

I do wonder if the US flooded the world with it's unsold domestic inventory, like China is doing, if it raining pickups and ultra huge SUVs would make Australia great. In the regions at least.

Who remembers when utes were povvo spec and cheap 'goods carrying' vehicles?

Make utes great again, still have the fancy Thailand Special, but bring in the Agrale Marrua AM200

https://www.safescape.com/vehicles/agrale-marrua

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Who remembers when utes were povvo spec and cheap 'goods carrying' vehicles?

Make utes great again, still have the fancy Thailand Special, but bring in the Agrale Marrua AM200

https://www.safescape.com/vehicles/agrale-marrua

I think the market has spoken. I know some like to claim they are only popular due to legislation however I think the fact that they can double as I nice family car, recreational vehicle and work vehicle is a much bigger reason. The market for a pov spec ute is small I would think.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by prydey

I think the market has spoken. I know some like to claim they are only popular due to legislation however I think the fact that they can double as I nice family car, recreational vehicle and work vehicle is a much bigger reason. The market for a pov spec ute is small I would think.

Toyota Australia refusing to bring the Hilux Champ to our market contradicts that, they're worried about it cannibalizing their Hilux Workmate sales.

My claim is backed up by the fact if you remove ABN purchases from the VFACTS stats, Tesla Model Y is Australia's most popular car from private buyers.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Toyota Australia refusing to bring the Hilux Champ to our market contradicts that, they're worried about it cannibalizing their Hilux Workmate sales.

My claim is backed up by the fact if you remove ABN purchases from the VFACTS stats, Tesla Model Y is Australia's most popular car from private buyers.

I never did there is no market.

Also, you are assuming that those buying with an abn wouldn't still buy the same car if they had no option to subsidise. That may be true but it's speculation only. They may not be the most popular but they would still be popular.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by prydey

I never did there is no market.

Also, you are assuming that those buying with an abn wouldn't still buy the same car if they had no option to subsidise. That may be true but it's speculation only. They may not be the most popular but they would still be popular.

You're also conveniently overlooking the financial benefits Thailand Specials provide through eligibility for middle class welfare opportunities, such as family tax benefit and childcare subsidies, that owning one of these dual cabs puts on the table when it comes to Centrelink entitlements, specifically excluding whats on offer through the ATO.

Take away those incentives and you'd find not everyone's wife is interested in driving some ladder frame monster that steers like the Costa Concordia.

[prydey]

Ford keep adding models... At the top. I think that says where they think the market is at. Other marques are doing the same.

No one is bringing out a basic ute.

I guess it's about profits.

If they brought out a povvo spec with a decent driveline it might be different, I agree but they don't. So when you option up to the bi turbo in the base model, you may as well just buy XLT.

[anobserver]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Who remembers when utes were povvo spec and cheap 'goods carrying' vehicles?

Make utes great again, still have the fancy Thailand Special, but bring in the Agrale Marrua AM200

https://www.safescape.com/vehicles/agrale-marrua

Make the Lada Niva great again! Be a good competitor for the Suzuki.



Though the zero star safety rating could be hard to get Ancap tickoff.

[Sprintey]

Yeah, I read through the comments on the dealer lot inspections vids, plenty of tradesmen over there saying 'I got a pick up for 35K before covid, no way I'm paying 75K for it now, I just want the base model for work'.

The little Toyota ute in India looks a bit like that one Franco!

In US, they've had layoffs, production cuts, dealers refusing stock, and incredibly Stellantis seems not to be offering much in the way of incentives to clear stock so dealers are frying. Worth checking out on any of the US auto channels on yt.

A few links, the channels do love a bit of drama, which is happening over there:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sZPtPL2tIA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMuwvEzXk8Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7DfwVCjsN8

Not just mopar:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEejvo3xHgg

In terms of hybrids mentioned in thread above, I think the massive increase in sales is easily understandable and quite logical - it's a way to peg fuel consumption to something very reasonable, use existing built out infrastructure, able to do very long Australian trips without extra consideration, provides good power and acceleration. I think it's a good way to get the transition to electrification going in Oz with its vast distances, and that it will continue as more hybrids land in that midsize SUV category.

Also, Toyota sales on the RAV were about 95% hybrid before they stopped the petrol, so the increase in hybrid sales because of this change would be marginal - it's consumer demand and volumes being able to be shipped to meet it.

(The Fast Lane has a really interesting RAV4 offroad AWD test where more than once he mentions just how good the electric motor in the rear is with the zero torque gripping as he gets over the obstacles on track.)

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by prydey

Ford keep adding models... At the top. I think that says where they think the market is at. Other marques are doing the same.

No one is bringing out a basic ute.

I guess it's about profits.

If they brought out a povvo spec with a decent driveline it might be different, I agree but they don't. So when you option up to the bi turbo in the base model, you may as well just buy XLT.

Absolutely, I think this was the plan in the US which is now falling on it's **** as the consumer cannot afford the top end as easily now, so lots full of them build up. Hard to get a base model or Maverick.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by prydey

Ford keep adding models... At the top. I think that says where they think the market is at. Other marques are doing the same.

No one is bringing out a basic ute.

I guess it's about profits.

If they brought out a povvo spec with a decent driveline it might be different, I agree but they don't. So when you option up to the bi turbo in the base model, you may as well just buy XLT.

My perspective is that Ford doesn't have what it takes to compete for Hilux Workmate sales - too hard basket.

They don't need to because they're at the top of the market, but I've never met any sales person who was happy with their existing sales, you always want to take as much on the table as possible.

Thats why Ford Australia lobbied the federal government tooth and nail about the NVES, because they realise they're cooked if the federal government introduces legislation effecting their only two profitable vehicles (Ranger and Everest).

[kevino]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

You're also conveniently overlooking the financial benefits Thailand Specials provide through eligibility for middle class welfare opportunities, such as family tax benefit and childcare subsidies, that owning one of these dual cabs puts on the table when it comes to Centrelink entitlements, specifically excluding whats on offer through the ATO.

Take away those incentives and you'd find not everyone's wife is interested in driving some ladder frame monster that steers like the Costa Concordia.

?????
Middle class welfare opportunities for Thailand special owners?
Wtf

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by kevino

?????
Middle class welfare opportunities for Thailand special owners?
Wtf

Some small business owners may also be disadvantaged by reportable fringe benefit (RFB) disclosures in their personal tax returns, which are required for FBT-exempt EVs but not for FBT-exempt dual cabs and 4WDs. RFBs are not taxed, but are taken into account when calculating family tax benefit, childcare subsidy, higher education loan program repayments and other obligations.

The fact is with Thailand Specials it reduces your obligations and puts entitlements on the table you wouldn't normally be eligible for, effects HELP loans, puts childcare subsidies in your reach and family tax benefit eligibility.

Does the market REALLY want dual cab utes, or is the market being incentivised? Funny how when you remove non-ABN purchases of vehicles, Model Y now becomes Australia's most popular car.

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

The fact is with Thailand Specials it reduces your obligations and puts entitlements on the table you wouldn't normally be eligible for, effects HELP loans, puts childcare subsidies in your reach and family tax benefit eligibility.

Does the market REALLY want dual cab utes, or is the market being incentivised? Funny how when you remove non-ABN purchases of vehicles, Model Y now becomes Australia's most popular car.

Or you could argue that a dual cab suits more businesses than a Model Y and that plays a part in why they are the more popular business vehicle.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by naddis01

Or you could argue that a dual cab suits more businesses than a Model Y and that plays a part in why they are the more popular business vehicle.

Sure, which is why there is pressure on the government to remove all the incentives, because they won't effect people using them for business purposes, because they actually need these vehicles regardless.

Only filters out the charlatans taking the ****.