Workplace reg changes. - Page 4

eb2flyz · 04-07-2005, 09:35 PM

geez brett mate you opened a real can of worms here :1syellow1

the way i really see it at the moment - to busy driving a truck to pay attention to a lot of things happening around us at the moment - i work hard for the dollars i earn and do the hours to get them, but also having said that and it has been said in here before that if you do your job well - ie earn your keep you should feel rather secure in your job.

but also having said that if you feel insecure about being employed use that motorvation to go out there and earn some real $$$$ and there are quite a number of ways to do that but you have to find a wealth creation system that works best for you.

my two cents worth

p.s there are 3 topics that should never be talked about and they are religion sex and POLITICS :voldar02:

svo347 · 04-07-2005, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quasi

I'm outta here for a while.....I used to enjoy this forum.

Well dont let the door hit your *** on the way out.

Citric GT · 04-07-2005, 09:50 PM

:I think some of us might need to take some happy pills

py: and possibly get a little bit less political and personal. Its a good topic and I'd hate to see the moderators get rid of it.

:Reverend:Matt

svo347 · 04-07-2005, 10:00 PM

Theres always an 1 or 2 in every crowd

347Stroker · 04-07-2005, 10:05 PM

Yes, I guess it comes from being a delegate for so long....

XD 351 Ute · 04-07-2005, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNM96

I am in the well planned position of having a trade behind me, and therefore have some security.

Mate don't think that having a trade will save our ar$es.
There's going to be just as much turmoil in skilled jobs as unskilled jobs.
I've been looking through job adverts lately, and more and more of them are
casual positions "with a chance of becoming permanent".

This to me is the guts of the whole matter.
The goverment & the employers will eventually have it so that there are very few permanent jobs, with many more people running around trying to scrape a living being shifted from job to job.

This is how they plan to make their unemployment figures look so much better, many more people working casual jobs, many more people just trying to put tucker on the table, because their job condtions & pay have been slashed.

This is what they want, plus combined with the reduction of conditions & allowances ( remember that casual workers don't get things like holidays, rdo's, long service leave, etc) will have us all working for diddly squat.

I'm lucky, we've just put through our current EBA for 3 years, so we've got that long to at least try & come up with a plan that benefits all, and not just the boss.

To all those people that dismiss this issue, there are hell of a lot of people out there that now don't have such a choice.

I sincerely hope that you doomsdayers aren't one of them........

Ed

XD 351 Ute · 04-07-2005, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 347stroker

I am not here to preach my beliefs in politics, and sometimes get a little carried away, but we really do need to look at the bigger picture here...

What are these reforms going to do for us all???

Do you all really realise what is up for you all to lose?
Do you want your holiday pay loading?
Do you want employer contributed superannuation?
Do you want penalty rates?
Do you want holidays?
Do you want sick leave?
Do you want a 38 hour week?
Do you want annual pay increases?
Do you want compassionate leave?
Do you want berevement leave?
Women, do you want job security, seeing pregnancy could hamper some bosses from employing you, seeing that they have to keep your job open for your maternity leave period?
Do you want the right to tell the boss, "no, I am not doing that task, its too unsafe"???

These are just a few points for you to think about guys, and dont believe it wont happen......its his plan.

Why would you want to throw away hard earned entitlements we have.....

Its just bloody un-australian

EXACTLY.

This is why people, whether you feel secure in your job or not, whether you have a good boss or not, you need to stand up & be counted.

The ideal conditions that you work with at the moment will not always be there. At some stage you and your boss will not see eye to eye, and that's what will give them the opportunity to say " SEE YA".

I've been happy with the jobs I've had, and always pulled my weight.
A fair days work for a fair days pay.
I could stand up and voice my opinion (and still do) without fear of getting the boot.

That has all changed now. Union or not, you'll have to watch your P's and Q's if you want to stay employed.

AND THAT"S BLOODY UNAUSTRALIAN!!!

Ed

347Stroker · 04-07-2005, 10:28 PM

You give it to em Ed, I'm with ya all the way.....

In the words of a great australian....

Such is life...

460cixy · 05-07-2005, 12:40 AM

bloody brain washed unionists. ever heard of ppl getting the **** for not joining a union? i have. so much for free choice and all that crap. lets pay union fees to chock up the labour party. keep up the good work

MNM96 · 05-07-2005, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 460cixy

bloody brain washed unionists. ever heard of ppl getting the **** for not joining a union? i have. so much for free choice and all that crap. lets pay union fees to chock up the labour party. keep up the good work

Here Here.
If your Unions hate the nasty Labour Party so much, ask them how much of your contribution goes to the Labour Stooges! Then post there answer here as it will help explain why you have to tow the anti Lib line.

The only time I have heard a union cry foul at Labour in recent time, and I'm not that one eyed to suggest it has not occured before, is at the last Tasmanian State, where the Union (sorry, read Labour) was all for cutting the logging industry.

I was forced to be in a Union once (Cfmeu) and was unfortunate enough to need some help. After 36 workers paid $1380 a year for three years we called our Rep. Left about 6 Messages. No reply. Sorted our out ourselves! Then one day, we get a call, about another matter, and he says " Sorry, We did not realise You guys were members"! Why did he call. "We all need to send a message of support to our fellow members in The Burnie Timber Worker's Struggle"! We didn't have a choice, lost three weeks work, no pay! Thanks but no Thanks. Do the Math. 36 Families @ $1380 a year for three years. $150000. We did not know you had contributed $150000, We thought it came from the 'Effen' Tooth fairy!!
Sorry, I got a Union Reality shot real early!

How about those DJR Boy's Forth and Fifth :1syellow1

Aaron_EF8 · 05-07-2005, 10:06 AM

Why were you paying $26 a week in union fees??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamie XR6

Love em or loath them, if it wasn't for them we'd be working in some terrible conditions.

Excellent point.

460ciXY - I have heard of people getting sacked for joining a union. I have also sued a former employer who sacked me for (among other reasons) getting a union rep into the workplace (I know they do nothing, but it scares small companies obviously). I also had the right to sue the company for unfair dismissal. If the same thing happened now, i'd be out the door with nothing but my holiday pay without loading.

4.9 EF Futura · 05-07-2005, 10:50 AM

Without going too-far off the topic, let's try and get something straight. John Howard was elected through a democratic process. The coalition now have a senate majority - again, something which comes around via a democratic process. Let's think about that. Voting. Majority rule. The people of our country providing a mandate.

To the people who despise howard... those who liken him to Hitler... whilst your opinions are equally as valid as the next person's - the people of Australia voted this man in. His cards have been laid squarely on the table before he was leader of the party (and on a similar note, Paul Keating called for similar reforms back in 1993... the ALP whistles a different tune these days doesnt it?). To put it simply - more people in Australia want this man to lead our country than those who dont. Democracy.... its a hell of a thing, aint it?

I'm not in a line of work that encourages me to support a union. Having said this, i have nothing against them. Although i'm not convinced the ACTU needs to spend $8million of member-provided funding to run TV ad cmpaigns.... and yes, people can cop a fair bit of flak for joining the union, but it works the otherway too. I know a few guys who work on sites with high union membership but they choose not to join... all day, every day they are treated like absolute scum (by their FELLOW WORKERS), are referred to as scab and have even had the sh!t kicked outta them at the local pub.

There are currently 1.4million union members in Australia. Let's assume a "workforce" of 10million people, give or take a few million. 14% of the workforce being active union members. Quite a reasonable representation. There are currently 1.8million small business owners in Australia. 18% of this workforce. Now based purely on this, it would appear that more people stand to benefit from the reforms than those who stand to be potentially worse off. Im a numbers man and as stated above, one who believes strongly in the purest concepts of democracy.... it would appear that between union members and small business owners - the needs of the latter outweight those of the former.

But to take a less-simplistic (yet still pro-IR reform) view of the world.... at the end of the day, to have employees you need an employer. To have an employer, you must (unfortunately) have the ability to generate profits and continue to grow. The IR reforms obviously benefit the employers of Australia. Does this not, by virtue of the above, provide benefits to all employees - union members or otherwise?

csv8 · 05-07-2005, 11:01 AM

Howard never said anything about radical IR changes at the last election. He knew if he did, he'd loose the election.

Aaron_EF8 · 05-07-2005, 11:04 AM

Excellent post Martin, very informative. There is one potential flaw though.

If large companies wanted to, they can split the company up into smaller companies of 100 employees or less and suddenly have a heap of new powers.

I'm not sure if there are measures in place to stop this, but I haven't seen any.

SpoolMan · 05-07-2005, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

But to take a less-simplistic (yet still pro-IR reform) view of the world.... at the end of the day, to have employees you need an employer. To have an employer, you must (unfortunately) have the ability to generate profits and continue to grow. The IR reforms obviously benefit the employers of Australia. Does this not, by virtue of the above, provide benefits to all employees - union members or otherwise?

This is why we have enterprise bargaining agreements they work well, it’s a win for the Boss a win for the worker.
The current federal government don’t like these EB agreements; they prefer to have people pushed onto AWA’s they make for much lower wages and brake down the collective.
The Question needs to be asked, what the excuse for changing the system is.
They don’t have one, the system works fine.
They only excuse they have for changing everything is majority in the senate.

4.9 EF Futura · 05-07-2005, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csv8

Howard never said anything about radical IR changes at the last election. He knew if he did, he'd loose the election.

The Workplace Relations Bill has been kicking around the senate for about 8 years now. It was not an "issue" in the last election so it wasnt all over the evening news. But it has always been on Howard's agenda. Always.

4.9 EF Futura · 05-07-2005, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRFPV8

This is why we have enterprise bargaining agreements they work well, it’s a win for the Boss a win for the worker.
The current federal government don’t like these EB agreements; they prefer to have people pushed onto AWA’s they make for much lower wages and brake down the collective.
The Question needs to be asked, what the excuse for changing the system is.
They don’t have one, the system works fine.
They only excuse they have for changing everything is majority in the senate.

I agree the fed arent keen on any arrangement which isnt an AWA. Lol, ive found myself under an AWA the last couple of years... I think this is 'typical' liberal-part agenda tho. Compared with the left wing of the ALP, the libs are obviously going to promote individual agreements... the ethos is for every man and woman to look after themselves... in every aspect of society... i mean, this approach is at the heart of liberal party politics.

My understanding of the excuse is the need to promote growth in a fragile economic period. Freeing the labour market promotes real wage growth in line with productivity, as opposed to productivity chasing inflated wage growth, a recipe for disaster in terms of inflation - the common enemy of all classes in society. This is something the libs have pushed for almost a decade now (i mean heck, free labour markets are at the heart of any 'right - winged' political party)... it just so happens that with a senate majority they can push these 8 year-old policies through without the 300+ 'watering downs' the ALP have insisted upon on previous occasions.

4.9 EF Futura · 05-07-2005, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron_EF8

If large companies wanted to, they can split the company up into smaller companies of 100 employees or less and suddenly have a heap of new powers.

This is true. And to be honest, i've worked for companies in the past which would probably do this. I guess any potential to do so would be based on a cost-benefit analysis.... at what point does the legal/regulatory cost outweight the benefits gained by accessing these new employment powers...

Im not familiar with the specifics of the legislation but it's fair to assume a few grand spent with the lawyers will exploit any loopholes in the legislation and allow industry to do what they want... but i cant help but feel the publicity associated might convince them otherwise... with unions and other industry bodies "keping the bastards honest" I think it would take a fair bit of 'spin' to talk their way out of an obviously 'anti-worker' move.... at a time when companies, big and small, are being watched closely by all...

MO · 05-07-2005, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quasi

Should have known by all the socialist retoric.

I am a member of the Australian Ford Forum, not some stinking union, and as such I answered another post by a FORUM member, it had nothing to do with unions.

Yeah, as long as no-one has an opposing opinion you're happy.

Quasi,you may disagree with my view/opinion and I may disagree with yours...just remember this,I will always stand up for ppls right to express their view/opinion...whether it agrees with mine or not.

Now I don't know what your experience with unions is but their not all bad.

Citric GT · 05-07-2005, 08:53 PM

Anyone who refuses to join the union and works along side others that are in it and has the same wages/conditions is just bludging of thier workmates. They deserve all they get.

MO · 05-07-2005, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citric XR6

Anyone who refuses to join the union and works along side others that are in it and has the same wages/conditions is just bludging of thier workmates. They deserve all they get.

Not quite its called freedom of choice,a democratic society,all we can do is keep trying to convince them that the union is there for and it is them.

I am a staunch unionist and proud of it,I had to work alongside quite a few non unionists,who once were members but for whatever reason became disillusioned.
Unfortunately I was only successfull in getting one of them to rejoin,and he was......The Chief Fire Officer...of my job.

Mustang Dave · 05-07-2005, 09:14 PM

Gee I really like the sound of two weeks a year holiday !

out: John howard and the libs

Jamie XR6 · 05-07-2005, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustang Dave

Gee I really like the sound of two weeks a year holiday !

out: John howard and the libs

That will go good with their plan to make us work until we are 85.

Citric GT · 05-07-2005, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John McMaster

Not quite its called freedom of choice,a democratic society,all we can do is keep trying to convince them that the union is there for and it is them.

I am a staunch unionist and proud of it,I had to work alongside quite a few non unionists,who once were members but for whatever reason became disillusioned.
Unfortunately I was only successfull in getting one of them to rejoin,and he was......The Chief Fire Officer...of my job.

A few months ago I convinced a bloke at work to join simply be reminding him who negotiated the pay rise he had just received AND who of us had payed for the privelidge.

347Stroker · 05-07-2005, 09:27 PM

Let have 3 chears for the theif that want to steal half of your annual leave....

Hip Hip........whos gay??????

347Stroker · 05-07-2005, 09:43 PM

Oh, have you also kissed good bye your sick leave....and long service......lol
I am sure he has.......bwahahahahahaha......how funny is it for me now.....

The end is nigh guys, and you still praise him......I have had such a great laugh through this thread, and its getting better.

I hate to say, told you so, but........hahahahahaha

Its good for me though, I am an employer, and never thought that I would be able to have such freedom over my employees, but seeing just how nieve you all are.........the future is looking bloody bright for me.........

loxxr6 · 05-07-2005, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Anyone who refuses to join the union and works along side others that are in it and has the same wages/conditions is just bludging of thier workmates. They deserve all they get.

Yeah i have to say that I don't agree that non union members should benefit from the work that union people achieve. However it is their choice and that's really what it comes down to. I don't believe people should be bullied into it either.

I myself only really joined as it's tax deductable. I've never had to use them yet but its nice to have that support there.

05-07-2005, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 347stroker

As I see it, I have never known a leader that has been shown to be a liar as many times as our current leader, but he still has everyones faith..

Well he doesn't have my faith in him, as I have never voted for the tosser, and the changes he is trying to bring in are proposterous.
The average aussie will not have a leg to stand on. Employers will be able to break the larger companies up into smaller groups...do not doubt it. whether we like unions or not they are a needed necessity.

460cixy · 06-07-2005, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citric XR6

Anyone who refuses to join the union and works along side others that are in it and has the same wages/conditions is just bludging of thier workmates. They deserve all they get.

well its good that i dont have to work with narrow minded ppl like your self any longer. its a free country and we have the right to choose. theres no need for union bullys in the work place. unions are there to protect the workers not suport political partys and there agenders. and dont get me started on univercity and tafe student unions there compulsery and for what?

MNM96 · 06-07-2005, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 347stroker

Let have 3 chears for the theif that want to steal half of your annual leave....

Not happening. The Liberal Party has come out yesterday and stated that your holidays will not be cut to two weeks, but you will have the "CHOICE" to cash in two weeks.

I will not be replying to this thread, for now, and instead will peruse it in, say, twelve months. Let us see if I was wrong, and I will stand up and say so. Who else will be man enough?
GO THE MAROONS!!!