L platers - banned from Freeways?

[H.G]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

Its not necessarily about being dangerous. Its more about the learning aspect ....... BUT I have had the poo scared out of me enough to know on freeways, no matter how much you are paying attention, to have a car in front suddenly change lanes and you find yourself sitting on 100 with a car in front doing 20 odd K's under the limit. If I wasn't paying attention in all cases I could have caused one of those end to ends you see everyday on the freeways. It is very unnerving ...... and has never been an L plater. Just someone who was not driving to the conditions ....... bit of a theme happening there

a valid point..

[JC]

Originally Posted by H.G

I still find it hard to understand how coming up behind an L plater that is going slower than the limit can be so dangerous...and if it is.. its definately not thier fault. I would take a guess that if you find yourself hard on the picks because you have caught upto a slower vehicle then you would be the person that is not paying attention to the road... Im not against them learning to drive at normal speeds.. but I dont see it as dangerous as everyone here is making out.. and if trusks or other cars are making dangerous decisions to pull out infront of other vehicles because they are stuck behind a slower vehicle then that would be due to that person being too impatient to wait. so its not really about the learner.. but about the open drivers attitudes and ability to use fore thought.

Think single lane highways full of people wanting to get to their destination at the speed limit (assuming conditions etc are conducive to doing the limit), and there's a bunch of mobile rolling roadblocks. let's call them learners doing 80 in a 100 zone. The danger comes from people having to go on the wrong side of the road to overtake - the danger is that someone miscalculates and causes a head on. A situation that probably wouldn't have been needed had said learner been doing the limit.

[H.G]

but they dont have to.. its thier impatience that fuels thier desire to pass..
if your on a tight time schedule.. leave earlier.

[irish2]

Originally Posted by H.G

but they dont have to.. its thier impatience that fuels thier desire to pass..
if your on a tight time schedule.. leave earlier.

You don't normally allow a 20% allowance in time, especially on long trips now do you?

In QLD there are no speed restrictions outside of the posted limits for plated drivers. There is not mass carnage and death.

[JC]

Originally Posted by H.G

but they dont have to.. its thier impatience that fuels thier desire to pass..
if your on a tight time schedule.. leave earlier.

It's not going to matter what time of the day you drive, chances are you'll encounter a learner who by law must act as a mobile roadblock. Or for that matter a qld driver sitting under the limit in the right hand lane.

I learnt to drive when roads probably weren't as good as they are now, and there was no artificial limit (a learner could do the legal speed limit, the same as everyone else), and yet I survived, and here I am. There is no reason, other than revenue, for learners to be restricted to a lower artificial limit (P platers, too for that matter). I challenge anyone to show any evidence that lower limits are required for L and P platers - real evidence, not knee jerk, or govt based evidence. I don't reckon the evidence exists.

[H.G]

well actually I always give myself an hour ... especially for trips which are time relevant. like tomorrow.. Ill be up at 4:45am and ready to leave for mackay by 5:30 so I can get there by 10:30.. saves having to rush
and realistically bad drivers arent state oriented.. they are everywhere.. not sure why everyone thinks thier state is the only one that knows how to drive a vehicle. I can however understand the argument between city and country drivers..

[HLC]

When I was on my L's (in NSW) my dad got me to do 110 all the time on the freeways. Gotta learn to go fast sometime, and it's better to do that with supervision.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by windowlicker

Should they be banned until P plates are attained?

L plate cars present a rolling road block on a Freeway. Some trucks and caravans are bad enough, but the sheer numbers of L plates on the F3 north of Sydney is lunatic.

You have at least two lanes for overtaking on a freeway, so better to encounter slow drivers there than a single lane highway.

Originally Posted by anolade

who did a hill start in manual or got any form of education towing trailers.

I did a hill start on my test (and in a manual). i even did a reverse to kerb parking maneuver. Luckily i didn't have to do a parallel park!

[irish2]

Originally Posted by H.G

well actually I always give myself an hour ... especially for trips which are time relevant. like tomorrow.. Ill be up at 4:45am and ready to leave for mackay by 5:30 so I can get there by 10:30.. saves having to rush
and realistically bad drivers arent state oriented.. they are everywhere.. not sure why everyone thinks thier state is the only one that knows how to drive a vehicle. I can however understand the argument between city and country drivers..

I agree with you here. So tell me why other states have no restriction, and have similar youth road tolls?

[robbyj]

The speed limits put on L and P plate drivers is ridiculous. I'm currently on my Vic green P's with no restrictions. I travel over an hour 3 times a week to NSW for uni.

The speed you come up behind these L platers IS very dangerous, take your eyes off the road for a couple of seconds and you can potentially be running into the back of them. (its not their fault) and don't sit behind your keyboard and say your a perfect driver and never take your eyes off the road.

It is annoying having to break cruise control and wait for a truck to pass another truck/caravan/l plater, i can see why people would get frustrated. But thats a whole different argument (road rage)

If a permit driver cannot learn to drive at highway/freeway speeds supervised (supervised L plate drivers are the safest drivers on the road) then when they get their license, pile a bunch of mates in the car, and travel at speeds they are not familiar with then you dont need a big imagination to predict what could happen.

[Werd.]

Originally Posted by The-ShowStoPPa

I'd rather them learn to do 110 with an instructor/guardian rather than by themselves with no prior experience once they get their p plate.

uhh they doesn't happen..
For a year they do 90,
then for another 2 years they do 100.

[Yellow_Festiva]

I drove back Fri arvo from The Entrance to Sydney via the F3. I wish I had my camera..... Passed 5 L platers and around the same P platers, all doing the limit and all sitting in the left lane.

At the end of the 90 zone I turned a bend to a flood of red lights thinking there was a jam. Right 2 lanes bumper to bumper 30-40 cars deep, the left lane (that I was in) clear for at least 1500m... not 1 car. Happened several times in the trip (as it usually does) but the bank up was beyond a joke...

I sit in the left lane most trips, every time I pass a heap of cars in the middle lane. Then you see the odd car (Camry and WRX this time) approach from behind at 120 swerving all over the place to change lanes several times in 5 seconds to gain 5 car places in the right lane.

Like I said.... camera would have been sweet.....

[H.G]

Originally Posted by robbyj

The speed limits put on L and P plate drivers is ridiculous. I'm currently on my Vic green P's with no restrictions. I travel over an hour 3 times a week to NSW for uni.

The speed you come up behind these L platers IS very dangerous, take your eyes off the road for a couple of seconds and you can potentially be running into the back of them. (its not their fault) and don't sit behind your keyboard and say your a perfect driver and never take your eyes off the road.

this could also mean you havent mastered the art of judging upcoming traffic yet? especially if your doing 100km and you cant tell the car YOUR APPROACHING is slower than you...
inexperience or impatience.. its one or the other.

[robbyj]

Originally Posted by H.G

this could also mean you havent mastered the art of judging upcoming traffic yet? especially if your doing 100km and you cant tell the car YOUR APPROACHING is slower than you...
inexperience or impatience.. its one or the other.

I can judge very well upcoming traffic, speeds, whether to pull out to overtake or the car in front is going to make the pass before i will etc etc

the point i was saying is it is potentially very easy to be distracted for a second and then being right up their bumper.

i usually sit on 110-113 kmh, (110 now they are blitzing the hume with camera cars)

[H.G]

if you actually read half the comments on this thread its WHAA WHAA WHAA Im being held up because of a learner or someone driving with a caravan or a truck...

[robbyj]

Originally Posted by H.G

if you actually read half the comments on this thread its WHAA WHAA WHAA Im being held up because of a learner or someone driving with a caravan or a truck...

I read every post on this thread, if you actually read the OP

Originally Posted by windowlicker

L plate cars present a rolling road block on a Freeway. Some trucks and caravans are bad enough, but the sheer numbers of L plates on the F3 north of Sydney is lunatic.

These stupid L//P plate speed limits "present a rolling road block". So yes, WHAA WHAA WHAA. thats what this thread is about. The potentially dangerous and unnecessary hold up of traffic.

[TheSneakiness]

L platers shouldn't be banned from freeways, however the effin stupid restriction to 80km/h MUST be removed.

Doing 80km/h in a 100/110km/h zone is NOT driving to the conditions or getting learners used to the conditions. It is merely causing more stress and grief on the learner with cars, fourbys, trucks, b-doubles bearing down at 100km/h with next to no confidence to respond if something went wrong.

Also, I must point out that some of the responses I've read from the younger drivers here saying the 110km/h zones are scary made me laugh inside. This is simply a by-product of the 20-30km/h difference.

I will admit the first time I was to go on the highway I wasn't confident but as soon as I went for it I felt great and confident to tackle it head on, and couldn't wait to hit the accelerator to go again. I would HATE to merge onto a highway/freeway/motorway at 80km/h when everyone else is going 20% faster.

[Outbackjack]

We dont have any freeways here in the NT as such. But the 80kph limit is down right dangerous. I am in the process of giving some rider training to my son and a mate of his. Both on "L" plates. We went for a ride on the weekend to Stuarts well, about 90klms south of the Alice. With the two learners sitting on 80 kph and me following in the rear, what a disaster waiting to happen. I sat there and watched more than one car/truck nose dive under heavy brakes trying not to run over the top of us. I have decided that I will no longer allow then to do 80 kph on the open hiway. On the ride back we sat on 120kph. Much safer!! The limit here is 130kph but that is totally ignored.

Its about time people with real life experience made the road laws. Not some bearded sandle/sock wearing acadumbic from the east coast!!

[H.G]

[blueoval]

Ban middle and right hand lane hoggers. They are far more annoying than L platers and yet, they are the ones with the full license.

[Ben73]

I believe L and P drievrs should be able to go as fast as the limit is for that road. The driver and instructor should be able to use their own brains to figure out when the learner is capable of freeway speeds.

At least L and P drivers sit in the left lane usually. But slow Full licence drivers seam to think the right lane is fine.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by blueoval

Ban middle and right hand lane hoggers. They are far more annoying than L platers and yet, they are the ones with the full license.

Exactly the issue. Until this is resolved nothing's going to get really sensible.

European motorways are good for judgement training. I'm usually driving at a modest 120-130. First issue you're dealing with is trucks and the occasional slow car in the kerb lane doing 80-90 (trucks are limited to 90 thank god!). So you plan ahead for the lane change then, next in doing that, you're judging cars coming up behind you in the outside lane at 180-200. You soon pick up that judgement (headlights on for all helps) and the different speeds across all users are not a problem. Isn't that what multi-lane roads are for?

It's all a well-synchronised ballet and relies on all users understanding the protocols.... which may be a problem in Australia.

I did once pass a car in Germany doing 100 out on its own in the middle lane of a 3 lane section. It had kangaroo stickers on the rear window. I wonder which country they came from?

PS when you do have one of those BMW/Audi/Merc speedsters coming up behind I find that the Octavia has fantastic acceleration pick-up between 130 and 150, even in 5th gear. The things you find out about car performance that you'd never get a chance to in Australia! These cars spend a lot of their lives in Europe driving between 120 and 160 km/h, I think they barely get to idle in Australia lol.

[H.G]

I dont think trucks should be speed limited either if L platers dont need to be..
lets be fair all round.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by H.G

I dont think trucks should be speed limited either if L platers dont need to be..
lets be fair all round.

Little bit of a safety issue there isn't there? People I've spoken to in Germany are horrified to hear that trucks do 100-110 in Australia and regard it as very dangerous.

There is a huge amount of truck transport in Europe, makes Australian roads look empty. They cover huge distances, 1000-2000 km in a journey. Safety record is good due to strong regulation, 90 limit on motorways (yet they don't get in the way for the reasons described in my previous post), curfews on weekends and peak hours, enforced rest breaks, yet - wonder of wonders - the industry is obviously thriving and not screaming out for constant political indulgences.

This is an industry and road safety issue, nothing whatsoever to do with learner car drivers.

[H.G]

yeah, but at least no one will have to worry about them going too slow and forcing an impatient driver to over take, risking their lives and the lives of their passengers as well as oncoming traffic.

[TMC]

In the old days in WA L platers were restricted to 72kmh and of course were banned from freeways. P platers were limited to 80kph as well. Now L platers and P platers can do 110kmh and can be on the freeway. One argument is how can someone learn how to drive on a freeway without driving like everyone else on the freeway while on L's. Being limited to 80kph on a freeway is suicide.

[flappist]

One of the problems is "what is a learner".

A learner is an ab initio and a learner is also a 99 hour driver.

Maybe there should be two levels of learner as there is for P plater. Ab initio are precluded from high speed roads until they qualify to a higher standard.
At this time they have the same privileges as red P except they require a supervising driver in the LHS.

[new2ford]

H.G and TMC are missing the point. Different speeds on a motorway are not an issue provided the slower ones observe keep left unless overtaking protocols. European motorways certainly prove those arguments wrong when they operate more safely than Australian motorways with traffic doing 80 or 90 in the kerb lane and up to 220 (I am anecdotally told!) in the outside line. The German road toll per capita is lower than Australia's.

[H.G]

I got the point a while ago.. its just pointless argument that seems to be doing more circle work than a drunk bloke at a B&S

and my argument is people are just impatient. but hide behind their opinion of it being unsafe.. when really its an issue about their ability to drive according to the conditions of the road in which they are driving..
just because the limit say 110kph doesnt actually mean you HAVE to drive at this speed..
as far as Im aware this is the FASTEST you are allowed to travel in this area.... not the minimum... maybe those people who choose to drive under the speed limit need to drive with their hazard lights flashing so that people who cant see a car in front of them may feel safer?

[IDT]

My 2 cents,
First
If you nearly ran into one doing 80 on a Freeway, I pity anyone crossing the street anywhere less than a kilometre infront of you in a 50 zone
Secondly
L Platers in and of themsleves arent the problem. Statistically they make up the smallest group involved in serious accidents.
The system is the problem, driving should be a school subject and "Learners should be the school kids driving in manual cars in controlled environments from 14 to 16 years old. P "Provisional" licenced people should be those who passed the subject at school and just starting to drive on the road under supervision as "Learners" are now but with no other restrictions other than the supervisor must have held a clean licence for a set period. The Supervisor must complete a short course and test themselves. Most people doing the supervising dont have a clue what they are doing behind the wheel let alone should they be teaching someone else.
And finally, are you ready for it?
Everyone gets retested every 10 years.

Who pays for all of this? Insurance companies