should police stop high speed chases

[4Vman]

I suggested rocket launchers on the side of police cars to help "slow down " runners once but it upset a few.....

[gcg2503]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I suggested rocket launchers on the side of police cars to help "slow down " runners once but it upset a few.....

Remember that comment well!

[JC]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I think a point that is being lost here is that out of all the pursuits involving police across australia, how many end in a serious crash such as this? I do not know the actual statistic but I do know that the vast majority are either called off before they get too unsafe or the person is caught without serious crash. The number that result in a serious crash would be way less than 1% at an estimate, we have what, a couple per year.

Now lets put that into perspective. How many die in high speed crashes not involving police? I have been to two deaths this year for that. How many die as a result of people running red lights? I have been to one death this year from that. How many die as a result of drunk driving? I have been to one large crash (luckily no deaths and only moderate injuries) so far this year.

My point is, you are more likely to be injured or killed on the road as a result of someone breaking road laws and driving dangerously than you are as a result of a high speed chase. At least in the chase, there are many mechanisms in use by the police to mitigate hazards to public safety. In the scenario of some moron in a stolen car trying to replicate his last game of Need for Speed, there are no such mechanisms without the police presence.

The large problem is, by banning pursuits and removing the ability of the police to stop this illegal activity on our roads, we are only going to achieve one thing. We will end up allowing people to drive as fast and as dangerously as they dare because they know police will not chase them. Think of it this way, I have a 290 kw SP, what is to stop me taping over or removing my plates (to prevent identity) and going out onto the M1 and set land speed records, I bet I could do 250+. What stops me know (apart from intelligence, respect for laws and moral responsibility) is the fact that the moment I started doing this I know the cops will chase me and there is a better than average chance I will get caught. Take away that opportunity for the police to stop me, I then have free reign to do whatever I like.

So banning pursuits is likely to cause a situation where although serious crashes no longer occur as a result of police chases (a very small percentage), more crashes will result from illegal activity due to an increase in this activity (due to the loss of law enforcement capability), resulting in a lot more deaths than we have now. The effect would be eradication of the lesser of the two evils and increase the greater evil, good plan.

The police do not cause these morons to act he way they do, it is the actions of the morons that cause the chase, not the other way around. After talking to a few cops, trust me, with the mountain of paperwork and level of investigation that follows all pursuits, they do not want to chase bad guys and would much rather they just pull over.

Great post. Hammer. Nail. Head.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

Take them out with RPG's..

That could work....
alternatively, something like the electric stun gun they used in fast & furious that zaps all their electrics stopping the car.

[Polyal]

Hard topic, I think there are cases where they should back off, and probably do, and guess what we dont hear about that.

The only other "solution" I can think of right now is having much MUCH higher consequences for running from police.

If it was an instant 10year (or x amount) term for the simple fact you did a runner would people think twice?

Probably not the ones that are too far gone (murders et al) but for the average Joe or kid, they might not run because you would hope they think when they do run they will live. But if they live and they are caught later, then bang, 10 year term no questions.

Dont know, that was a quick idea.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

No they will not, as I previously stated steering will still work while the car is moving forward. Try it out, go on the road, travel at speed and turn your engine off. The steering becomes heavy but still steers and there is more than enough vacuum to pull it up well. In fact as long as the clutch is engaged and the trans is in gear, the engine is till being turned over and therefore still creating vaccuum. As the engine is still turning over, so is the power steering pump so the steering still works. This is proven by all the BA-BF Boss owners that have had their engine stall at highway speeds, have not heard of any of them dying in a big fiery crash.

Hence my stipulation for there being a visual contact with police to confirm description. Notice in my transcript the police did not give the description, control did (this would be recorded on the satellite system vehicle ID). That is a safe guard to ensure correct vehicle operation.

And the US missile control system can be too, IT security is around to deal with this. If it was to happen, well call off the pursuit as some here are suggesting, whats the difference?

4'
Not sure but considering we have sat tracking, I am sure they could too.


Make them illegal and removed from the market, what legal reason do you require one?

Make it a requirement before a date in a reasonable space of time that it be fitted or the vehicle is not able to have registration renewed. As for the unregistered vehicles that are being driven, no idea. Perhaps drive an unregistered vehicle and get caught you have 3 months to register it or lose it (do not know and do not care, why do I have to come up with all the answers)

It is a system that defaults to car enabled and requires a signal from the system to disable, hence not problem. It has no more chance to accidentally disable your car than your normal engine immobiliser that all cars are fitted with.



90 in a 60 zone is endangering lives, like it or not. You find me one emergency services worker or advanced driving instructor that disagrees and I will shut up about it.

Honestly Tony, if you had read my idea properly, gave it more than cursory consideration before posting, you would not have asked half your questions.

By the way, oops on the VKI thing, that is the west aussie coming out in me.

Yes I know your heart is in the right place but banning GPS jammers? Would that work as well as banning radar detectors, handguns or drugs?

I have also thought of the MAJOR reason why this should never even be considered.

The revinue fixated socialists that run this country WILL attach it to the SPER system.
Right now if your local council stuffs up and fines you for not registering a dog that died years ago and refuses to back down because the council is never wrong (as is what is going on in the Goldy at the moment) not only will you lose your drivers license but your car will no longer work either.

I am most amused at your blind faith in public vegetables not getting it totally wrong.

Real events:

One of my brothers mates was arrested on an outstanding warrant as he fitted the description of the crim and his car was a similar make and had the same rego. Shame his was NSW and the crim was QLD.

Three police turned up at my house to confiscate all my rifles as the system said I was unlicensed. Even after showing them the license they did not believe me and if I was not "vouched for" they would have taken everything and charged me. It was sorted the next day after a myriad of faxes and phone calls.

When I worked for the electricity board we once turned off the power at a business due to non payment of the bill. It was a computer stuff up and the failed power caused the loss of several wedding photos that were being processed at the time.

Only a few weeks ago morons from Ergon turned off the power at work (not so good for an IT company) due to the idiots not understanding the difference between 7/17 and 1/17.

And of course the 000 debarcle in January

I have many other stories of gross incompetence by public vegetables as have, I suspect, many other members.

Free will is the last freedom we have, once we give that up for "the good of the people" we have become totalitarianist.

This has been tried many times before throughout history and never ends well.

It really does worry me that so many are prepared to give away so much for so little.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" is as true today as it was in 1775.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by flappist

Yes I know your heart is in the right place but banning GPS jammers? Would that work as well as banning radar detectors, handguns or drugs?

I have also thought of the MAJOR reason why this should never even be considered.

The revinue fixated socialists that run this country WILL attach it to the SPER system.
Right now if your local council stuffs up and fines you for not registering a dog that died years ago and refuses to back down because the council is never wrong (as is what is going on in the Goldy at the moment) not only will you lose your drivers license but your car will no longer work either.

I am most amused at your blind faith in public vegetables not getting it totally wrong.

Real events:

One of my brothers mates was arrested on an outstanding warrant as he fitted the description of the crim and his car was a similar make and had the same rego. Shame his was NSW and the crim was QLD.

Three police turned up at my house to confiscate all my rifles as the system said I was unlicensed. Even after showing them the license they did not believe me and if I was not "vouched for" they would have taken everything and charged me. It was sorted the next day after a myriad of faxes and phone calls.

When I worked for the electricity board we once turned off the power at a business due to non payment of the bill. It was a computer stuff up and the failed power caused the loss of several wedding photos that were being processed at the time.

Only a few weeks ago morons from Ergon turned off the power at work (not so good for an IT company) due to the idiots not understanding the difference between 7/17 and 1/17.

And of course the 000 debarcle in January

I have many other stories of gross incompetence by public vegetables as have, I suspect, many other members.

Free will is the last freedom we have, once we give that up for "the good of the people" we have become totalitarianist.

This has been tried many times before throughout history and never ends well.

It really does worry me that so many are prepared to give away so much for so little.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" is as true today as it was in 1775.

Good points, I do see where you are coming from but as I tried to convey before and if you read my post, you would have seen it, was that the privacy issue is a problem for legislation. It is not in my view an insurmountable issue that negates the usefulness of the technology. Government departments can track yo from you credit card transactions, do you not have a credit card or do you have trust in the privacy laws?

As far as I am concerned, if the public resist effective management of dangerous drivers on the grounds it invades their "civil liberties", then they should shut up and accept their "civil right" to die at the hands of the morons whose rights they protected.

Personally, fit the device to both my cars, no issue to me. Probably I pull over when the police want me too, I pay fines on the odd occasion I get them and I have no intention of playing real life Need for Speed on public roads (I have a PS3 for that).

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by flappist

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" is as true today as it was in 1775.

And "they can have my gun when they pry it from my cold dead fingers" hey Tony?

[ED Classic]

With this guys priors and history, even if he wasnt road spiked and stopped in a safe/ish manner a description would have just about had the police going through his door as soon as he frequented his address..and who knows maybe even saved 3 lives..sure beats a big adrenalin charged high speed chase where something like this is a very very high probability

[JC]

This accident didn't happen during an active chase, and on the road he was on (know it well), he would have come a cropper just a little further up had he got that far.

Anyone else sus on the fact that perp and "murdered" victim/s knew each other "well"? Wonder if they were meeting up at all, (for drugs, no doubt) and the offender just lost where he was (thinking maybe he had to turn at the next intersection so just blasted through the one he did)?

Honestly, if someone runs, is it the fault of the chaser, or the person running. Some paranoid people are constantly on "the run" and no-one's chasing them, so in my mind it has to be the runner at fault.

[DBourne]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Hard topic, I think there are cases where they should back off, and probably do, and guess what we dont hear about that.

The only other "solution" I can think of right now is having much MUCH higher consequences for running from police.

If it was an instant 10year (or x amount) term for the simple fact you did a runner would people think twice?

Probably not the ones that are too far gone (murders et al) but for the average Joe or kid, they might not run because you would hope they think when they do run they will live. But if they live and they are caught later, then bang, 10 year term no questions.

Dont know, that was a quick idea.

I think if that was the case then if people happened to have a copper behind them, they might fear the jail term and then figure "what have i got to loose"

Maybe an idea would of been to have local PD up ahead lay spike strips down, but really 20/20 hindsight is golden

[ED Classic]

Originally Posted by JC

Honestly, if someone runs, is it the fault of the chaser, or the person running. Some paranoid people are constantly on "the run" and no-one's chasing them, so in my mind it has to be the runner at fault.

I dont think this thread is over who is at fault, No doubt the family are in the right, DEAD RIGHT (and those 2 words is what needs to be thought about really hardly for future incidents)

[Wally]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

And "they can have my gun when they pry it from my cold dead fingers" hey Tony?

More like "Men fight for freedom, then they begin to accumulate laws to take it away from themselves" or if you like "no man can put a chain about the ankle of his fellow man without at last finding the other end fastened about his own neck".

Originally Posted by MAD

I do, and would, condone capital punishment. If there was a vote held tomorrow, I know which box I'd be ticking.
Criminals that prove themselves to be impossible to rehabilitate/educate are removed from society for good. Why bother giving them accommodation, just flick the switch and watch the lights dim.

I'm all for increased force for the coppers as per merlin's post.
Get the job over and done with quickly to reduce the amount of time the public is at risk.
How the hell wasnt this guy in jail?s

Well I guess you would need to convince yourself that capital punishment is a deterrent in the first instance and that mass killing is palatable to the public conscience.

Rehabilitation to social norms can be a problem, especially as those norms are a moving feast. When I was a kid I was out shooting roos, making bullets, driving tractors, blowing up stumps with nitropil, climbing trees, riding a bike without a helmet, driving trucks and cars on gravel roads, having schoolyard fights, doing my best with girls under hedges, putting lippy on while wearing my mums high heels, putting my arm over the shoulder of my best cobber, pulling my own teeth, leaving barked knees without a bandaid, playing in swollen creeks, getting stung with saltpeter shot while attempting to steel water melons, letting of crackers and skyrockets (legally), running cap gun tape between cement and finger, running away from coppers, throwing rocks on roofs, walking along the top rail of picket fences, riding with no hands, skateboarding without helmet shin guards and wrist bands, playing sport without hats, rolling jaffas down the cinema floors, bum sucking two pack cigarettes, sly grogging stones green ginger wine, paying a drunk to get a couple of cans of Fosters, ...and many other socially irresponsible actions, until I hit my teens and I began a whole lot of other impudent responses by today's standards, but back then we had real men and women who only wanted the govt to stop taxing them, provide a veneer of police safety and leave them the hell alone to earn a meagre wage and raise a family. Inviting the govt and it's law arm in is like inviting the devil to high tea, he'll spoil the milk and refuse to leave.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by SgtBourne

I think if that was the case then if people happened to have a copper behind them, they might fear the jail term and then figure "what have i got to loose"

Maybe an idea would of been to have local PD up ahead lay spike strips down, but really 20/20 hindsight is golden

But if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear?

It wouldn't stop those who dont want to be stopped, but there is not much you can do there, but its the 50/50 people or those with things that are "minor" that might think twice.

I dont know, crap situation really.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by ED Classic

With this guys priors and history, even if he wasnt road spiked and stopped in a safe/ish manner a description would have just about had the police going through his door as soon as he frequented his address..and who knows maybe even saved 3 lives..sure beats a big adrenalin charged high speed chase where something like this is a very very high probability

This is easy for us to say now when we have the benefit of hindsight, we know who the driver was.

The simple fact is this guy blew through a RBT at a dangerous speed (I highly doubt the cop recognised him as he did), the cop chased him to try and stop him, during which time he could not have identified the driver and he was in a stolen car. The police did not know his identity at the time of the incident so they could not plan to go to his house and get him later.

[UNR8D]

it is truely amusing how people respond with the 'we knew his identity' or why didnt they just follow him home attitude.

Untill you are there in the HEAT of the moment, 'that is NOT sitting on a computer 48 hours later with a I HATE COPS mug on your table keeping your latte warm' I fail to see how you can reasonably have a arguement that says the cops were in the wrong.

I would put money on the fact that the '150' between 1990 and 2010 would be a greater number of deaths on the road from people 'doing as they please' due to knowing they wouldnt be chased.

you cant have it both ways, how about thinking before you type next time.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by UNR8D

it is truely amusing how people respond with the 'we knew his identity' or why didnt they just follow him home attitude.

Untill you are there in the HEAT of the moment, 'that is NOT sitting on a computer 48 hours later with a I HATE COPS mug on your table keeping your latte warm' I fail to see how you can reasonably have a arguement that says the cops were in the wrong.

I would put money on the fact that the '150' between 1990 and 2010 would be a greater number of deaths on the road from people 'doing as they please' due to knowing they wouldnt be chased.

you cant have it both ways, how about thinking before you type next time.

Well said, could not agree more.

[UNR8D]

Originally Posted by Wally

I'm not staunch like a copper, but I know how I'd feel........ like I had just contributed to several people's death.

We don't condone capital punishment for murderers, but we seem far less concerned for human life when someone steals a car.

Staunch as a copper.... didn’t know that making you a copper made you unhuman....

fact is I wouldn’t be thinking that I had contributed to their deaths at all, I had done all in my power to stop this DH from doing more damage/carnage and bring him to justice, he failed to have a living brain cell in his body so he decided to take it upon "HIMSELF" to be reckless and ultimately kill someone else in the process.

NO blood on the police forces hands as far as im concerned.

How about we just extend the fact that police don’t turn up to holdups/break and enters/hostage situations in case the moron decides to take out civilians as well... you have a very twisted point of view.

[JG66ME]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

1) Police should continue high speed chases following all the procedures and protocols that are in place already.

2) A police officer should not be held to blame if the chase has a bad outcome as long as they followed the procedures and protocols mentioned in point 1.

What he said.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

And "they can have my gun when they pry it from my cold dead fingers" hey Tony?

You quote CCRKBA, I quoted Benjamin Franklin, both of whom were not very popular with people who wished to unfairly subjugate and control others.

This thread started with "should police pursuits be allowed" but strangely has morphed to "we should become a police state".

It is bloody frightening to read some of the views written here.

[superpursuit83]

We give too much too crooks already, chase them down I say.

[StrokedXT]

The police procedures on police pursuits in NSW need to be looked at, The coroner has been calling for a review for the past 10 years to bring it into line with other states and worlds best practise but the NSW police force refuse.

Thats not the fault of the coppers involved so im not bashing police, but something is amiss when the result of trying to apprehend a petty crim is 3 innocent lives.

What puzzles me is that with a smaller population and a lower crime rate nsw has 4 times the number of police chases as los angelas, surely something doesnt stack up there.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by flappist

It is bloody frightening to read some of the views written here.

I guess that depends on your point of view.

I do not see the control of dangerous maniacs as establishing a police state, a police state is one that restricts your right to freedom and privacy, but you don't have the freedom or right to risk the lives of others. So therefore it is not restricting your valid rights is it?

Guess my views are biased due to the fact that I sometimes do not have a metaphorical blood on my hands as has been suggested the police do, I have actual blood on my hands from road trauma.

[mrbaxr6t]

if some ahole stole my car I would want one of those car killing/stopping devices attached to it I report it stolen they find it through the use of GPS tech and stop it in a middle of nowhere place send some officers and a truck and I get my car back while mr. thief gets some quality time in the cell with bubba. nobody gets hurt my car dont get smashed as they don't run (no visible sign of HWP) so they assume its "broken down" and calmly like any other motorist take measures to continue their journey and return for the car at a later stage once the have help or a tow truck or whatever, I concede that when I am driving around the cops could then shut me down to pull me over for a breatho or running a red light or what have you and yes that would irritate me greatly, but should my car get stolen I won't see pix on the news of it pile driving some school bus full of school kids landing half of them in hospital. At the very least fitting all cars with GPS locators will allow the police to find cars aid in the finding of missing persons even and there will be little need to chase anybody because you know where they are via GPS tech just wait for them to stop and pounce whilst they sleep or whatever.

Or better yet put GPS locators surgically inside criminals, they want to be criminals they should suffer police knowing where they are 24-7, and the rest of us that don't break laws get to move around freely not watched by some satellite and have some inplant reporting our location every 20 seconds to police should they want the info.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I guess that depends on your point of view.

I do not see the control of dangerous maniacs as establishing a police state, a police state is one that restricts your right to freedom and privacy, but you don't have the freedom or right to risk the lives of others. So therefore it is not restricting your valid rights is it?

Guess my views are biased due to the fact that I sometimes do not have a metaphorical blood on my hands as has been suggested the police do, I have actual blood on my hands from road trauma.

Yes but your idea is the controlling of EVERYBODY just in case one is a dangerous maniac.

Dangerous precedent.........

[vztrt]

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...0322-qra4.html

Car chases: what police won't reveal
March 23, 2010

The NSW Police Safe Driving Policy is a secret document.

For years, the state's coroners have been criticising it, suggesting revisions and comparing police actions to it. But repeated requests to police to see the controversial policy have been denied.

Across the border in the ACT, however, the equivalent policy is available on the internet.

It clearly set out the rules under which police may initiate a pursuit - many relating to their own expertise and the car they are driving - and when they have to terminate.

Among factors ACT police have to consider are ''the nature and comparative seriousness of the offence'' and the ''real or potential danger'' to police, the public and people in the suspect car.

''The sworn duty of a police officer to protect life and property will always take primacy over the need to apprehend offenders, especially when the offence involved is relatively minor, or where there are safer options other than immediate apprehension.''

But the NSW Police Traffic Services Commander, John Hartley, said yesterday that publishing details of the state's policy would ''allow drivers to know the triggers why we don't pursue''.

Geesche Jacobsen

Source: The Sydney Morning Herald

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by gcg2503

Remember that comment well!

yes... it got someone's panties in a knot! The lighter side is lost around here sometimes...

[calais]

Originally Posted by flappist

Yes but your idea is the controlling of EVERYBODY just in case one is a dangerous maniac.

Dangerous precedent.........

A very dangerous precedent.

Not unlike the tyranny of the Soviet Union, or the dictatorships of WW2 etc; the list goes on.

I will never submit to the idea that there should be a 'police state' imposed upon our society.

When the minority seemingly justifies the shackles being placed on the majority, I see nothing but history repeating itself.

Where this thread is going, I'm not too sure, but one thing I do know is this, I am in constant hope that some of the members posting on this forum aren't in parliament, or in a position of authority within our society. Heaven forbid the controls that some deem necessary ever come into fruition.

[Flaming Mo]

Originally Posted by jeep_by_ford

What puzzles me is that with a smaller population and a lower crime rate nsw has 4 times the number of police chases as los angelas, surely something doesnt stack up there.

That is an interesting and surprising statistic if true. No expert but I’ll hazard a guess at some possibilities though. In Australia, car thieves instigate police on many pursuits for “fun”. The police will generally only follow until the chasee decides to stop or as in most cases, the pursuit is terminated. On the off chance the offender is apprehended, he will be struck down with a probation period or good behavior bond and walk out of court jovial about his night of “fun”.

In America however, police pursuits are mainly instigated by those with suicidal tendencies or those from an unfortunate gene pool. As they are well aware that the Police will generally smash you, bash you or shoot you dead in order to end the pursuit. When the offender is caught, if not dead, he will usually face an extended period in prison. I reckon this might take a bit of the “fun” aspect out of it for the joyriders.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Flaming Mo

That is an interesting and surprising statistic if true. No expert but I’ll hazard a guess at some possibilities though. In Australia, car thieves instigate police on many pursuits for “fun”. The police will generally only follow until the chasee decides to stop or as in most cases, the pursuit is terminated. On the off chance the offender is apprehended, he will be struck down with a probation period or good behavior bond and walk out of court jovial about his night of “fun”.

In America however, police pursuits are mainly instigated by those with suicidal tendencies or those from an unfortunate gene pool. As they are well aware that the Police will generally smash you, bash you or shoot you dead in order to end the pursuit. When the offender is caught, if not dead, he will usually face an extended period in prison. I reckon this might take a bit of the “fun” aspect out of it for the joyriders.

In America the police vehicles have ram bars too and they use them, they're also not afraid to use their guns too...

Too many kids do exactly as you say, its a game to out run the police here.. Also too much time on the play-station playing GTA... then living their video game life out...