Call to cut Luxury Car Tax on Australian-made vehicles

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

All good and well if your definition of a luxury car is a six cylinder Falcon, which like many, mine isn’t....

G6ET is not luxury? F6E? Cylinder count means nothing.

OS ≠ Luxury

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Other than the fact that its obvious why LCT exists, revenue for Gov...is it not there to protect our local industry aswell?

A luxury car tax does not protect our local industry, that's what tarriffs on imported vehicles used to do.
Luxury car tax applies to vehicles above $57K (?) out of the reach of most working schmos in this country.
No, it's pointed directly at the sherry sipping, pinky pointing latte crowd and their millions of dollars hidden away....
(^^^^^^^^^^For those that don't know me, I am being sarcastic)

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by Polyal

G6ET is not luxury?

OS ≠ Luxury<<<<no idea what this means

Again your definition, and the taste of an individual, nothing wrong with that...

But forcing someone to buy/like something, that i do have issues with....

[Polyal]

So most large sedan imports or over $57k yeah? Yes it covers all cars but find a proper falcon/commy competitor at that price thats imported. Im not talking XT, but high spec G6E/Calais/Caprice. Your looking at 5 series and E series mercs, C's are about Mondeo size.

I didnt mean that it protect locals 100%...but its certainly aids.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

Again your definition, and the taste of an individual, nothing wrong with that...

But forcing someone to buy/like something, that i do have issues with....

I get where you are going, but if LCT is removed it will NOT help local sales...thats it.

I was saying Overseas cars (imports) does not equal luxury...everyone thinks because its got a fancy 3 point star then its the holy grail of motoring.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Other than the fact that its obvious why LCT exists, revenue for Gov...is it not there to protect our local industry aswell?

Removal of this tax will seal the deal for the Falcon (and the commy). You can blah blah all you want that they should lift their game but at the end of the day their cars employee Aussies, who generally spend their earning in Australia and around the cycle goes.

Removal, or lessening, of LCT on locally built cars gives incentive for jobs to stay here if it increases or atleast stabilize local sales.

Everyone seems to ***** on about buying local, save local jobs, but when it comes to the crunch the individual largely doesnt give a squat, its whats best for them (which is understandable aswell).

So, WGAF if imports get LCT..really...oh poor diddums gets slugged for buying his/her Merc..big deal. Go buy a full spec Commy or Falcon then. For some reason over the past 10 years (probably longer) owning a luxury Aussie car has become "bogan" or not good enough to match Mr and Mrs Jones....

All those local businesses want us to buy local, well it goes both ways.

Disagree 100%.
why do people need to be forced to buy a particular make of car via unfair taxes? I'm sorry but people earn their money have the right to buy what they desire not what the government forces them to.

[nstg8a]

i doubt the govt would even be legally allowed to reduce the lct on just australian made cars, its akin to whacking a tariff on imports, which is against all the free trade deals which keep all the exporters working...

[ltd]

Originally Posted by flappist

No in actual fact I have been employing full time staff since before you were born some of whom have worked for me for over 25 years.

All of my staff have one thing in common, they have a positive attitude and see the big picture rather that just look in the mirror all day thinking "ME ME ME"........

In actual fact MOST people employed in the private sector are full time and many of those who do start casual or part time are offered full time once their true personalities and attitudes are revealed.

Of course the morons and misanthropes never attain a full time position as they have nothing to offer their employers and workmates other than grief......

The amusing thing about your attitude to LCT is if there were not any LCT then employers would have more money with which to possibly employ extra staff, offer more hours to existing staff or possibly offer permanent positions.
More high end cars like FPVs which are rather labour intensive would be sold employing more people and years later more high end cars would be available second hand for young struggling workers to enjoy.

Of course this will not do anything for morons and misanthropes so I suspect you do not care.......

Agree 100%
That's a chip on both shoulders; someone who's failed and is now angry at all employers because they don't give him full time work and security when he's given them so little positives to base their decision upon.

Most people with experience realise that to a business, the staffs are the biggest commodity. There's advertising for a position which costs money, screening applicants which cost money, interviewing applicants which takes time and costs money, selection and initiation which costs money, training which costs money, lost productivity as they grow into the job which costs money, mistakes which costs money. Once all of these costs are factored in, the business then tries to keep the staff they've invested these sums of money into. Unless of course they were a smart **** who can't appreciate the partnership between employer/employee, why would the alleged greedy business want to just put someone on and spend the rest of their time ostensibly trying NOT to retain them? Illavitar I suggest you fly to North Korea to see how communism has failed the people and doesn't work.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Wretched

Disagree 100%.
why do people need to be forced to buy a particular make of car via unfair taxes? I'm sorry but people earn their money have the right to buy what they desire not what the government forces them to.

Please no one is forcing anything, its an incentive.

Everyone here is happy that we have a local car industry, but we will end up just like every other country (developed) by losing it with little changes like this.

Most "luxury" cars already have LCT, so people are used to it, whats the big deal? It certainly hasn't seemed to stop people from making that choice.
Our local industry is just about on the brink, so why not make it more accessible for Australians to buy Australian cars? Yes we are only talking about a small number of local cars that fit this bill....its better for us to have people driving G6ET and Calais around then low spec euros.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Wretched

Disagree 100%.
why do people need to be forced to buy a particular make of car via unfair taxes? I'm sorry but people earn their money have the right to buy what they desire not what the government forces them to.

Answer is simple, why should Australia allow free trade to come in and steal jobs for Australians, when the country dumping their product doesn't allow free trade and (as in China's case) subsidises their own industries' products to undercut the locally made product? Is that not an unfair advantage?
Why do we as a nation seem so hellbent on destroying our own industries in the name of a one way type of globalisation? Facts are, we're offering free trade to some nations who in principle agree, but distort their markets to make trade barriers for us to sell to them.
Think it's not happening? Look at our latest trade; Juliars 800 of our boat people for 4000 of theirs. WTF, that's a pretty bad "negociator" (sic).

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Please no one is forcing anything, its an incentive.

Everyone here is happy that we have a local car industry, but we will end up just like every other country (developed) by losing it with little changes like this.

Most "luxury" cars already have LCT, so people are used to it, whats the big deal? It certainly hasn't seemed to stop people from making that choice.
Our local industry is just about on the brink, so why not make it more accessible for Australians to buy Australian cars? Yes we are only talking about a small number of local cars that fit this bill....its better for us to have people driving G6ET and Calais around then low spec euros.

Incentive? Bah, you're basically saying if you buy Car B from X country instead of car A here then you will be slugged an extra government cost.
The LCT whether on local cars or not isn't fair, what I don't agree with is removing it only from local cars just to prop up them up. It should be abolished completely.

If the locals really want people to buy their "luxury" cars over imported luxury cars then it's up to them to convince buyers as to why they should get one. It is their product, they should bring it up to spec with market expectations (or more) and market it accordingly.

[bingoTE50]

The Government is actually not winning anymore Tax dollars anyway with the LCT . You can depreciate the vehicle if its purchase price was more than 60k by a % you determine justified by the business usage you claim.When disposing of the vehicle if you sell it for more than you depreciated it ,you may pay capital gains tax.( I do not know of anyone doing this)
Any smart business operator has a good accountant to assist in reducing tax liability,it is a no brainer. Kerry Packer did not pay tax according to a interview I saw.
As far as casual employment goes ,show initative,learn,become a valued employee and you may just become the next Manager,Foreperson,you report too.If you are in retail,it is the very few who progress pass 17 yrs old because it is a fact of life that retail/food businesses use low income employees to help offset a competitive market,however ,a % do become line managers , the person you report to.

[sudszy]

Trying to look at this topic from the point of view of justifying the LCT,

Perhaps another way of looking at:

The Australian car industry was originally developed so that joe average could afford to buy a "simple" car and improve the way of life in aus with independent mobility, as well as stop sending money out of the company on foreign cars.

The industry was heavily subsidised in setting up and to this day is still heavily subsidised in giving joe average the 'affordable' 'simple' car.

The argument would be that if some people aren't satisfied with the simple car and are willing/able to pay for something better, then they obviously aren't in the category that needs any subsidy/assistance to get themselves part of mobile society, think of the lct as just the subsidy removed.

I maybe wrong, but it would appear also that the lct primarly affects those that purchase the cars for business etc and its affecting just the bottom line for those that purchase these cars and claim losses etc, rather than the private buyer who pays outright for the car, a minority perhaps.

I dont know if Im looking at the latest reg, but it said that if adr fuel consumption was below 7L/100km the tax didnt apply, didnt mention what fuel though, Id of thought grams of CO2 per km would be a tighter and more relevant criterion in the current environmental climate .

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by sudszy

I maybe wrong, but it would appear also that the lct primarly affects those that purchase the cars for business etc and its affecting just the bottom line for those that purchase these cars and claim losses etc, rather than the private buyer who pays outright for the car, a minority perhaps.

.

I would suggest there would not be a clear minority/majority here, I know many who have been slugged for LCT and only a few of them own a business to claim it against.

In fact my parents and many of their friends no longer buy new cars (for example Statesman/Fairlane), they buy 2nd hand Mercs, BMW and Audi. One of the reasons (amongst many others) is you do not get slugged for LCT on second hand cars. That way you get a lot more features for your dollar. Look around at many of the cars that some here complained about being bought and claimed against on tax, they don't attract LCT anyway. None of the optioned up Maloo's, Super Pursuits or fully optioned up 4WD utes attract LCT as they are commercial vehicles and therefore exempt.

Not that it all affects me for the moment, our last Mini and our next one are both exempt as their fuel consumption is less than 7L/100km. Before that exemption a Mini JCW ($59k on road before options) would have attracted LCT.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

In fact my parents and many of their friends no longer buy new cars (for example Statesman/Fairlane), they buy 2nd hand Mercs, BMW and Audi. One of the reasons (amongst many others) is you do not get slugged for LCT on second hand cars. That way you get a lot more features for your dollar. Look around at many of the cars that some here complained about being bought and claimed against on tax, they don't attract LCT anyway. None of the optioned up Maloo's, Super Pursuits or fully optioned up 4WD utes attract LCT as they are commercial vehicles and therefore exempt.

^^^ This is one of the unexpected side effects of a LCT, people start lurking in the used
market, picking up bargains on 12-24 month old luxury vehicles and avoiding the LCT.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by jpd80

^^^ This is one of the unexpected side effects of a LCT, people start lurking in the used
market, picking up bargains on 12-24 month old luxury vehicles and avoiding the LCT.

Great for the importers of foreign vehicles, foreign vehicle manufacturers etc but crap for the producers of Australian "luxury" cars and the retailers of these vehicles.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by jpd80

^^^ This is one of the unexpected side effects of a LCT, people start lurking in the used
market, picking up bargains on 12-24 month old luxury vehicles and avoiding the LCT.

What you are missing here is the market value of a used car is related to what the cars cost new in this country which includes the taxes that are paid on them.....otherwise we'd see one year old mercedes for sale at german prices in used car lots.


Or are you suggesting that the entire 2nd hand market is made of second hand cars imported from overseas?

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by jpd80

This is one of the unexpected side effects of a LCT, people start lurking in the used
market, picking up bargains on 12-24 month old luxury vehicles and avoiding the LCT.

Exactly, this is where a few friends and family have gone and where i will be going in the future, all the LCT achieved here is....no money to the manufacturer (whomever that may be) and no money to govco.....zip!!

Second hand car market.....win win...!!

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by jpd80

^^^ This is one of the unexpected side effects of a LCT, people start lurking in the used
market, picking up bargains on 12-24 month old luxury vehicles and avoiding the LCT.

But you dont avoid the LCT on a second hand car. The LCT is just an added cost that goes on the price of a new car, and is depreciated away at the same rate as all other costs that are included in a new car. An $80,000 car, that becomes a $90,000 car with Lct added, depreciates at the same rate as if it didnt have the Lct added. So if it depreciates at 40% over 2 years, the buyers arent getting it at $80,000 minus 40%, they are getting it at $90,000 minus 40%. They are simply getting the Lct, minus the same 40% that everything else has depreciated in the car.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

But you dont avoid the LCT on a second hand car. The LCT is just an added cost that goes on the price of a new car, and is depreciated away at the same rate as all other costs that are included in a new car. An $80,000 car, that becomes a $90,000 car with Lct added, depreciates at the same rate as if it didnt have the Lct added. So if it depreciates at 40% over 2 years, the buyers arent getting it at $80,000 minus 40%, they are getting it at $90,000 minus 40%. They are simply getting the Lct, minus the same 40% that everything else has depreciated in the car.

That is true but look at it this way. You can buy a brand new top of the line statesman for $80k and then pay LCT or you can buy a 2 year old BMW for $80k. Yes the depreciation of the BMW includes the original LCT but the buyer is not seeing that on the invoice and 40% of it has been absorbed by depreciation of the vehicle. LCT is just one of the additional factors that to a lot of people is pushing them away from new cars and onto 2nd hand. If I was after a large car with lots of trimmings, I would not look at a Statesman or Fairlane, I would go a secondhand euro, more trimmings for my dollar.

By the way, we no longer have the Fairlane and the Statesman is under threat, coincidence?

Originally Posted by Sudszy

The argument would be that if some people aren't satisfied with the simple car and are willing/able to pay for something better, then they obviously aren't in the category that needs any subsidy/assistance to get themselves part of mobile society, think of the lct as just the subsidy removed.

Another example of punishing those that work hard to better themselves and contribute more to society, meanwhile those that don't are rewarded.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by ltd

Answer is simple, why should Australia allow free trade to come in and steal jobs for Australians, when the country dumping their product doesn't allow free trade and (as in China's case) subsidises their own industries' products to undercut the locally made product? Is that not an unfair advantage?
Why do we as a nation seem so hellbent on destroying our own industries in the name of a one way type of globalisation? Facts are, we're offering free trade to some nations who in principle agree, but distort their markets to make trade barriers for us to sell to them.
Think it's not happening? Look at our latest trade; Juliars 800 of our boat people for 4000 of theirs. WTF, that's a pretty bad "negociator" (sic).

That's all fine and dandy but why is it that the local made cars are struggling?
If they're that good why is it that they're down on sales but other models in the Ford lineup are selling well? May be if Ford looked at countering that issue then the sales would stop sliding. it is a product issue that needs adjusting not the tax.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by sudszy

What you are missing here is the market value of a used car is related to what the cars cost new in this country which includes the taxes that are paid on them.....otherwise we'd see one year old mercedes for sale at german prices in used car lots.


Or are you suggesting that the entire 2nd hand market is made of second hand cars imported from overseas?

The second hand market price is governed by what buyers are prepared to pay for an item,
not necessarily the depreciated price according to tax write down schedules....

If you think an FPV or HSV loses heaps of value in the first 3-4 years of it's life,
you ain't seen nothing until you see what happens to MB, Audi, BMW and Jaguars....

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

That is true but look at it this way. You can buy a brand new top of the line statesman for $80k and then pay LCT or you can buy a 2 year old BMW for $80k. Yes the depreciation of the BMW includes the original LCT but the buyer is not seeing that on the invoice and 40% of it has been absorbed by depreciation of the vehicle. LCT is just one of the additional factors that to a lot of people is pushing them away from new cars and onto 2nd hand. If I was after a large car with lots of trimmings, I would not look at a Statesman or Fairlane, I would go a secondhand euro, more trimmings for my dollar.

By the way, we no longer have the Fairlane and the Statesman is under threat, coincidence?


Another example of punishing those that work hard to better themselves and contribute more to society, meanwhile those that don't are rewarded.

People with $80000 to spend on a car are being punished, strange world you live in.
The lct has already been paid on the 2nd hand beemers and its only worth $80000, because of the price these things are new in this country and the lct that was paid on it.

Effectively all you are arguing is ban foreign cars because 2 year old versions are better value than brand new australian ones.. a dangerous precedent, ban imports and one thing is guaranteed, we wont get a world class car made here.

Along education lines, if someone wants a private education for their child, do you also think they should receive a tax subsidy equivalent to educatining their child in a public school....~$13 000

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Along education lines, if someone wants a private education for their child, do you also think they should receive a tax subsidy equivalent to educatining their child in a public school....~$13 000

No, just a tax deduction on the expenses incurred to take the child out of the
government system and free up a place for a child from a less fortunate background,

I think that would be a worthwhile venture, don't you?

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by sudszy

People with $80000 to spend on a car are being punished, strange world you live in.
0

If you can afford an $80000 car then you probably have an above average income. If that's true then you already have a higher tax rate. You are already paying more tax then the average Joe. Why should you pay more tax on the things you buy with your leftover income.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The second hand market price is governed by what buyers are prepared to pay for an item,
not necessarily the depreciated price according to tax write down schedules....

If you think an FPV or HSV loses heaps of value in the first 3-4 years of it's life,
you ain't seen nothing until you see what happens to MB, Audi, BMW and Jaguars....

No, Im not arguing that cars dont depreciate, but I am arguing that the value we place on them 2nd hand is in part due to what they cost new..in this country.....as I said previously, how else do you explain that a two year old benz in this country demands a whole lot more cash than one in germany.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by sudszy

People with $80000 to spend on a car are being punished, strange world you live in.
The lct has already been paid on the 2nd hand beemers and its only worth $80000, because of the price these things are new in this country and the lct that was paid on it.

Effectively all you are arguing is ban foreign cars because 2 year old versions are better value than brand new australian ones.. a dangerous precedent, ban imports and one thing is guaranteed, we wont get a world class car made here.

What he's trying to show is that not only does an imported car depreciate quickly but so too does the added LCT.....
While there will always be people wanting to buy new imported luxury vehicles, the tax could be better manged
as increased GST, like a 15% level on the whole amount....but apply that to all cars not just luxury cars.
The extra 5% could be called a car carbon tax or whatever the government wants to coin it...

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by sudszy

People with $80000 to spend on a car are being punished, strange world you live in.
The lct has already been paid on the 2nd hand beemers and its only worth $80000, because of the price these things are new in this country and the lct that was paid on it.

Effectively all you are arguing is ban foreign cars because 2 year old versions are better value than brand new australian ones.. a dangerous precedent, ban imports and one thing is guaranteed, we wont get a world class car made here.

Along education lines, if someone wants a private education for their child, do you also think they should receive a tax subsidy equivalent to educatining their child in a public school....~$13 000

You need some help with your comprehension skills, I never mentioned a ban on foreign cars. I just stated that LCT increases the cost of a new car over a second hand car.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by jpd80

No, just a tax deduction on the expenses incurred to take the child out of the
government system and free up a place for a child from a less fortunate background,

I think that would be a worthwhile venture, don't you?

it doesnt cost money to withdraw a child from a high school, and there are places for every child in this country?

In truth , all private school students do get get subsidies from the government at the present time, just not the whole $13000 they claim gets spent per student in the state system.

So you think its ok, people that send their kids to private schools should get the whole $13000 grand handout from the government? Do you think that goes against the spirit of why education was made free for everyone?

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by sudszy

People with $80000 to spend on a car are being punished, strange world you live in.

Not a strange world at all, I know a lot of people that feel there is a situation of diminishing returns on working hard because you just lose more in taxes. Take income tax for example, the financial benefit of me doing one extra shift a fortnight is considerable, 2 is less but still worth it but three is not worth it because of the tax hit.

In this situation regarding LCT, someone that works very hard to be able to afford a nice car pays more tax than someone that does the bare minimum and can only afford an average car. Therefore hard work is punished, mediocre is left alone, do you get it now?