Ford wants Lincoln to be a luxury player with FWD

[fou_bleu]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Mercedes and BMW are seen as premium, others arnt....what's the difference? Rear wheel drive. Even Lexus knows they have to have rear wheel drive.

Firstly, can I ask if you're Australian, because you remind me of someone off another forum...

Secondly,

SINCE WHEN HAS AWD/RWD SOLELY DEFINED 'PREMIUM'?

Please do answer me that one, because if a spacious, luxurious interior with ample tech. or a smooth handling / riding experience has nothing to do with it, why bother with anything more than a Falcon XT for a luxury car? You'll save a mint!

If every M-B & BMW owner were asked why they brought it over an Acura, Lexus or Lincoln etc., do you honestly believe they will all say "because they're only RWD/AWD". For M & AMG owners, yes, I'd expect that they would say something along those lines - and they have good reason, those cars are paramount all-rounders - but to expect the 'average' well-off person to buy a base 3-Series over a fully spec'd up Mondeo Titanium JUST because the 3er is RWD (nothing to do with the badge at all) is laughable...

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by 4RD4TW

Not too much different from Audi's FWD based systems then, eh? If Lincoln sees it fit to make a high powered CD4 car, then they will engineer it to allow the power, things like this aren't concrete and can be further developed, surely you can understand that?


Why are people expecting Lincoln to have a new V8 RWD 'flagship' platform (S197 or E8 'won't do' for a Lincoln if it's such an issue) financed, designed, engineered and released last week just to be 'taken seriously'? And by whom exactly will this matter to? The 'fan' base who are more than likely to not put their money where their mouths are anyway? Honestly, do you all really think people pay the big money for a BMW or Merc solely because they're RWD, because that's what you're implying...

I for sure don't know Lincoln's plans are, but I do have this thing called common sense and the ability to form my own opinion rather than to be a "RWD!!!" sheep...

And Audi have spent milions designing their new platform to get rid of the nose heavy handling and understeer created by their previous FWD/AWD platform, and the engine hanging past the front wheels, trying to make it drive more like a RWD car.

There's a reason BMW advertise their cars as "the ultimate driving experience". You don't get that with FWD or AWD. Uncorrupted steering and perfect balance make a great driving car, not torque steer, and nose heavy understeer like Audi's tend to do.

As for Lincoln, they need a competitor to all their rivals V8's. Has nothing to do with RWD, its just a fact that all the other luxury makers have top line V8's, which Lincoln don't have. Didn't say it needed to be in production today.



Sure they could engineer a stronger transaxle to get more power from the EB V6, but I bet you they won't do it.

And i'm not a RWD sheep either, FWD has its place, its just not on luxury high end sedans, all the others know it, Lincoln haven't worked it out yet. And Lincoln will never get to where they want to be if they think FWD and AWD will be good enough. Lexus designed a whole bunch of new cars from the ground up to be RWD, so they could seriously compete. The precident is there.

[jpd80]

Currently, the V6 Ecoboost AWD applications use an upgraded 6F50 gearbox that was a
Joint Venture with GM, for Ecoboost applications the box received extra clutch plates
and a stronger input shaft...that's it and the box is on it's development limit.

The 6R80 is a ZF built under license by Ford and holds real promise if expanded.
If Ford decided there was a need, they could develop a 6F80 for the V6 Ecoboost
FWD/AWD applications and throw away the torque limitations...

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by 4RD4TW

Firstly, can I ask if you're Australian, because you remind me of someone off another forum...

Secondly,

Yep, Im probably as Australian as they come living in SW QLD, my nearest neighbour being about 6km away. I shoot, I drive Australian, and my road to town 30km away is purely dirt.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

And Audi have spent milions designing their new platform to get rid of the nose heavy handling and understeer created by their previous FWD/AWD platform, and the engine hanging past the front wheels, trying to make it drive more like a RWD car.

There's a reason BMW advertise their cars as "the ultimate driving experience". You don't get that with FWD or AWD. Uncorrupted steering and perfect balance make a great driving car, not torque steer, and nose heavy understeer like Audi's tend to do.

As for Lincoln, they need a competitor to all their rivals V8's. Has nothing to do with RWD, its just a fact that all the other luxury makers have top line V8's, which Lincoln don't have. Didn't say it needed to be in production today.



Sure they could engineer a stronger transaxle to get more power from the EB V6, but I bet you they won't do it.

And i'm not a RWD sheep either, FWD has its place, its just not on luxury high end sedans, all the others know it, Lincoln haven't worked it out yet. And Lincoln will never get to where they want to be if they think FWD and AWD will be good enough. Lexus designed a whole bunch of new cars from the ground up to be RWD, so they could seriously compete. The precident is there.

Very well said mate, agree with that 100%

If you look at the way Merc and BMW do business globally, in all markets with very little localisation then why does Ford find it so hard to replicate what is a proven formula?

[fou_bleu]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

And Audi have spent milions designing their new platform to get rid of the nose heavy handling and understeer created by their previous FWD/AWD platform, and the engine hanging past the front wheels, trying to make it drive more like a RWD car.

Who's to say that Lincoln aren't doing the exact same thing?! Would that really not make them 'premium' if they started to copy an already 'premium' brand?

There's a reason BMW advertise their cars as "the ultimate driving experience".

I'm not a RWD hater if that's what you think - I'd love to see a RWD, supercharged V8 Continental as much as the next enthusiast! Yes, enthusiast, not customer. Sure, there may be a mob of customers out there wanting the said vehicle, but if it's not a feasible product to produce (ie: non-profitable by any achievable means), why put avoidable financial strain on the company just to please a small percentage of customers when that money could be spent on making a pre-existing product meet their demands?

You don't get that with FWD or AWD. Uncorrupted steering and perfect balance make a great driving car, not torque steer, and nose heavy understeer like Audi's tend to do.

Make up your mind:

And Audi have spent milions designing their new platform to get rid of the nose heavy handling and understeer created by their previous FWD/AWD platform, and the engine hanging past the front wheels, trying to make it drive more like a RWD car.

As for Lincoln, they need a competitor to all their rivals V8's. Has nothing to do with RWD, its just a fact that all the other luxury makers have top line V8's, which Lincoln don't have. Didn't say it needed to be in production today.

For any application other than an all-out RS, M & AMG fighter, an EcoBoost V6 will always be the better choice than a V8 from a marketing position, whether you or any other 'enthusiasts' agree or not. There is still room for more power and efficiency as well - a win-win IMO, especially with rising fuel prices...

Sure they could engineer a stronger transaxle to get more power from the EB V6, but I bet you they won't do it.

If the management, market researchers, engineers and the bean counters see it fit, I'm 100% sure they would...

And i'm not a RWD sheep either, FWD has its place, its just not on luxury high end sedans, all the others know it, Lincoln haven't worked it out yet. And Lincoln will never get to where they want to be if they think FWD and AWD will be good enough. Lexus designed a whole bunch of new cars from the ground up to be RWD, so they could seriously compete. The precident is there.

High end luxury sedans... As in a FWD Audi A6, right?

[z80]

Like my brother says the only difference between the FWD and the RWD cars in a rally is the FWD cars see the tree coming, the RWD don't know what hit them.

[janddbone]

GRWD could comfortably do 250,000+ sales. If Ford can't do it, then who the hell can???

[tranquilized]

4RD4TW - you are looking at this from a purely pragmatic viewpoint.

High end luxury cars are never bought from a purely pragmatic viewpoint.

[Moby Vic]

Originally Posted by 4RD4TW

RWD this, FWD that, blah blah blah - there's nothing more demoralising to a company's image than their so-called 'fans', honestly!

Lincoln is not reviving the brand to its 'former glory', rather they are working on reinventing it. Gone will be the grandpa Town Car image and in will come the contemporary Lincolns that should appeal to younger buyers through modern styling, more efficient offerings and working on making interiors a more desirable environment than they have been in the recent past. What's wrong with that? Why say you're aiming for BMW/Merc etc. (arguably an aging demographic) and running the risk of failing spectacularly - something Cadillac is risking, with a massive investment in Alpha and the CTS platform...

I'm sure eventually there will be a devoted performance Lincoln, but IMO, it's not a priority at the moment.

As for the FWD/RWD argument, all Lincolns are available in AWD, so is that such as issue?

If that's the plan, Lincoln is not needed as a separate division. It's a waste of money. You can get a quite luxurious Ford truck these days.

In the true classic era (1920s and 1930s), Lincoln was a conservative, "old money" brand. The nouveau riche bought Cadillacs, which tended to be flashier. Lincoln at its best offered conservative styling, solid power, and good quality.

If a Lincoln is just going to be a Ford with a fancier grille and more gizmos, it won't last. That's what Mercury was, and that's part of the reason Mercury is gone.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Do you really think he type of person who lays down money on a Lincoln, Caddy, or whatever, really cares which end is doing the driving? Caddilac certainly didn't lose sales when they went through the "ugly stage" many years back with FWD versions..the only thing people critisized was the styling, not the fact it was FWD...

i think what you are saying is rich people are as concerned with drive wheels as much as joe average. i actually agree with you that the drive configuration won't matter unless you are doing a sports car.

what REALLY gets my attention is that Lincoln are getting ford cars and speccing them up. Lincoln should by rights be building the platform they need, then letting ford use it for the rest of their fleet. If RWD will sell better, then that's the platform they should build for Lincoln.

[fou_bleu]

Oh dear lordy! I'm off to explain this to my dog, he might understand...

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by 4RD4TW

Oh dear lordy! I'm off to explain this to my dog, he might understand...

You're the only one trying to defend your opinion, no one else agrees with you, yet you are saying no one else understands.

I think you're the one who doesn't understand the luxury market.

Lincoln has gone down hill and sales are quite low because they are just re-hashed Ford FWD/AWD chassis's that aren't that great to start with, and they want to continue with that but with ambitions to greatly increase sales.

To do that they need to do what Lexus and Cadillac have done and make premium platforms for themselves. Most premium luxury car platforms are RWD.

And V8's don't need to be in performance models, the S500, 550i etc aren't performance models. And the Ecoboost V6 is useless against them in terms of power, torque and economy because they are twin turbo DI as well. Some of these twin turbo V8's use less than a Falcon 6 does, yet make well over 300kw and 600nm of torque, figures Ford could only dream of with the Ecoboost V6.

There's an idea for Lincoln, an Ecoboost V8. The Coyote will be going DI within a year or 2 so it will be begging for a couple of turbos. Would go well as a GT500 engine as well, and a replacement for the 6.2 in the Raptor and Super Duty F series.

[fou_bleu]

Oh, I get what you're saying, the ONLY reason Lincoln sales are shot is because there is no RWD.

I suppose its got nothing to do with the fact that they're charging BMW & Merc rivalling prices combined with the lack of comparative value, shared dealerships with the cheaper Ford brethren with the same design [minus a nose here, a tail there]? Or with brand snobbery - ie: BMW has a better stigma than an a 'ol' Lincoln'. Sorry for having taken my blinkers off...

/sarcasm (just incase someone couldn't comprehend that and goes off their nut)

I'm not bashing on RWD here FFS - I'm as much a fan of the platform as everyone else here! - but my problem lies with everyone who thinks that the lack of a comparable system is the only thing holding Lincoln back from being a segment best seller! The Town Car was proof enough that that idea is just stupid!

Just a quick re-cap / tl;dr:

Yes, a RWD car would be effing awesome, but the lack of one isn't the sole problem of Lincoln. END OF (unless you can misconstrue my clarified sentiments any further...)

Lincoln needs (and shall be getting);

* Improved customer experience - the all-new Lincoln only dealerships will start the ball rolling, along with a more premium service experience (washed cars etc.)
* Non-Ford related exteriors / interiors (coming with all-new models)
* Non-Ford options - incoming push button transmission & retractable glass roof are a good start
* Efficient and alternative powertrains - hybrids of course, plug-in hybrid a must
* A performance-minded vehicle, a la MKR

All those in that order exactly, too. Capiche?

[Moby Vic]

No, the only reason Lincoln isn't doing well isn't that they're FWD, but the fact that they're planning to move forward with primarily FWD isn't encouraging.

[BFZ Wagon]

Aiming for the prestige/luxury end of the market with all their Lincoln models being FWD.. That's hilarious...
Ahh Ford. You'll never learn..

[max_torq]

the fools what would they know... just put lincoln badge on australias favourite taxi.. let the US find out what australians have been taken for granted all these years. Then they will put the E8 on the pedastel it deserves, revive GRWD, and save Ford!

[Nikked]

Seems like people are basing ideas on 100 years of past, rather then future. Nothing wrong if Lincoln offering a FWD/AWD car that will be cheaper to produce.

FWD give's more room inside the car, and only a select few people will be buying a 2000kg barge purely for its dynamics, for those people, hopefully there will be a RWD sedan avaiable (or a coupe?...)


When you are using your barge just to travel to board meetings, airports etc they are not going to stress (or even find) the limitaions of a FWD drivetrain.

[Moby Vic]

A prestige brand must offer something prestigious.

What is Lincoln offering that is prestigious at the moment? Cheaper cars are more powerful, more luxuriously appointed, and offer a traditional luxury discriminator such as rear-wheel drive.

Hyundai offers the very reasonably priced, RWD V8-powered Genesis sedan and Equus sedan in the US now.

[Franco Cozzo]

Maybe a Falcon with a higher level of kit would appeal to them? Obviously starting with auto up/down windows on all 4 .

Isn't the FG designed as "LHD friendly"?

[fou_bleu]

Originally Posted by Moby Vic

No, the only reason Lincoln isn't doing well isn't that they're FWD, but the fact that they're planning to move forward with primarily FWD isn't encouraging.

As an atheist, I'm thanking the lord that you and your like don't run Ford or Lincoln!

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by 4RD4TW

As an atheist, I'm thanking the lord that you and your like don't run Ford or Lincoln!

Yeah cause Lincoln are doing so well right now aren't they? You just don't get it, can't see the big picture. This isn't your typical RWD vs FWD argument. It has little to do with driving dynamics but more about image - crucial for a luxury brand.

What part about a luxury premium brand choosing a path that saves them in development & R&D costs sounds ok to you? It's insanity, and they WILL fail.

You should read Bob Lutz' book Car guys vs Bean Counters. Might give you a better understanding of how pragmatic, cost focused, seemingly sensible car development practices just don't work without a clear grasp of the esoteric characteristics that make a car desirable.

[Moby Vic]

Originally Posted by 4RD4TW

As an atheist, I'm thanking the lord that you and your like don't run Ford or Lincoln!

What do you know about the history of Lincoln? I bet I know more about Lincoln than any member of this forum. I am very familiar with the history of Ford Motor Company in North America.

No one would like to see a Lincoln revival more than I would. The MKZ concept is attractive. But Lincoln's mission is unclear in a very crowded marketplace.

If Lincoln's mission is to become what Mercury was, then there is no reason for Lincoln to continue to exist. It will merely siphon profits away from Ford.

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by Moby Vic

What do you know about the history of Lincoln? I bet I know more about Lincoln than any member of this forum. I am very familiar with the history of Ford Motor Company in North America.

No one would like to see a Lincoln revival more than I would. The MKZ concept is attractive. But Lincoln's mission is unclear in a very crowded marketplace.

If Lincoln's mission is to become what Mercury was, then there is no reason for Lincoln to continue to exist. It will merely siphon profits away from Ford.

It seems that Mulally has done a great job. Got rid of the companies that Ford did not need. The Ford brand has a clear direction. We know something is changing for Lincoln, we just don't know what it is yet. I would like to see Lincoln go after Mercedes.

[Moby Vic]

Lincoln is clearly not going after Mercedes, though. Lincoln isn't clearly going after anything at the moment.

Ford doesn't want Lincoln to be a global player. But the last iconic Lincoln was the Town Car, as outdated as it was. Lincoln has zero brand recognition in the US at the moment.

[fou_bleu]

Lincoln isn't a one car company, much the same as FoA isn't 'Falcon of Australia' - so one RWD model will not the be all and end all that will make Lincoln a premium brand (for those that consider it isn't).

What I am trying to say, is, if Lincoln / everyone who wants Lincoln to be taken seriously in the premium market - against Audi, BMW and Mercedes etc., they need to prove that they can build competitive basic cars first - specifically the MKZ (A4, 3-Series & C-Class) and the upcoming Escape-based vehicle (X1 competitor).

After that, it'd make sense for Lincoln to address the elephant in the room that is the MKT & the Navigator. My best bet? Kill 'em both, and make a Lincoln Explorer, an all-new Aviator. Covers both the 7-seat and off-road markets in the one vehicle designed to new Lincoln standards - not trying to modify 2 cash-losing cows to get as close as possible to the required criteria and failing.

For Lincoln to green-light a full-size, RWD sedan (a la A6, 5-Series & E-Class), the basic business (read: volume sellers) has to be running efficiently and profitably on its own, otherwise Lincoln will be in the same boat as they have been for a while - no money therefore no product. This Continental-successor has to be done right - a no excuses performance / luxury sedan that is not disgraced by the Germans.

Yes, Lincoln will need this kind of vehicle in the medium- to long-term future even if for bragging rights alone, but to prematurely shoot the bullet on a risky model like this when you have yet to prove yourself to consumers on even the most basic models (MKZ et al) is just asking to go out of business!

[Moby Vic]

The MKZ will not revive Lincoln. It's a midsize car. This is the USA. We like big for luxury cars. The Lincoln LS, even with its excellent Jaguar chassis, made little impression on the US market, in part because it was a small car by US luxury standards.

Lincoln is betting its livery future on the (FWD) MKT. How could you suggest eliminating it? It's the Town Car replacement. Lincoln wants buyers to use it for the professional (i.e., funeral) cars and airport shuttles of which the Town Car has been a mainstay for decades.

The Navigator, while ridiculous. is where the profit is in the USA. The unfortunate "brace face" restyle of a few years back has hurt sales, though.

I agree that a RWD flagship requires profits, but those won't come from Lincoln. They'll come from Ford. Ford is on the rise at the moment. The question is whether Lincoln will limp along long enough for Ford to be profitable enough to invest in a true luxury knockout again. The MKXZ is absolutely not it.

Lincoln is associated with presidents, gangsters, and old money, in that order. Gussied-up Fords on unibody FWD chassis are associated with none of that. That association is what killed Mercury.

[Moby Vic]

Originally Posted by 4RD4TW

Yes, Lincoln will need this kind of vehicle in the medium- to long-term future even if for bragging rights alone, but to prematurely shoot the bullet on a risky model like this when you have yet to prove yourself to consumers on even the most basic models (MKZ et al) is just asking to go out of business!

Lincoln doesn't have a chassis for a class-leading RWD segment leader at the moment. But if they don't get there, they won't survive.

I agree with your statement, but what concerns me is that the official press releases state that Lincoln has no interest in going beyond where it is at the moment, and that the target market is young professional females. That is not Lincoln's DNA, and it is not the way forward if the brand is to continue.

I would love to see Lincoln revert to a single-vehicle lineup. Offer a very expensive four-door car in sedan and convertible form. Give it at least eight cylinders, make it rear-wheel or all-wheel drive, and use an all American steel body. Make it truly luxurious, and build 500 less than the market demands.

The problem with that is that it would probably destroy standalone Lincoln dealers (no longer buoyed by the former volume of Mercury sales). Ford needs to examine the costs of keeping Lincoln around, and the value a prestigious luxury marque could bring.

[fou_bleu]

Originally Posted by Moby Vic

Ford needs to examine the costs of keeping Lincoln around, and the value a prestigious luxury marque could bring.

I would love to see Lincoln revert to a single-vehicle lineup. Offer a very expensive four-door car in sedan and convertible form. Give it at least eight cylinders, make it rear-wheel or all-wheel drive, and use an all American steel body. Make it truly luxurious, and build 500 less than the market demands.

Ok, I'm done with this, my logic here must be just... dumb.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Moby Vic

What do you know about the history of Lincoln? I bet I know more about Lincoln than any member of this forum. I am very familiar with the history of Ford Motor Company in North America.

No one would like to see a Lincoln revival more than I would. The MKZ concept is attractive. But Lincoln's mission is unclear in a very crowded marketplace.

If Lincoln's mission is to become what Mercury was, then there is no reason for Lincoln to continue to exist. It will merely siphon profits away from Ford.

At the moment, Lincoln's two best selling vehicles are merely high series Ford Fusion and Edge with different outer skins and trims,
this may be acceptable for past Mercurys but is unacceptable when chasing luxury buyers willing to spend serious cash.

Max Wolff is a breath of fresh air, he has already questioned the direction Lincoln is going and asked for a separate
design studio to get the "Ford" styling out of what should be Lincolns. Dedicated top hats with different silhouettes
and door frames is the basic building block required before we even begin talking about which wheels do the driving.

Ford asked the question why Lincoln doesn't work, the answer they got back will require serious funding to achieve...