Performance....where do we go from here?

[mik]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Just wait until the electric cars become common...some nice torque off the mark.

Technology is a ******, just try and keep up. In saying that weight is always increasing, and using exotic materials is not feasible in mass production, so you need to power to counter the weight.

agreed, and a lot of the weight comes from safety aids which are increasing all the time, safety high strength passenger compartment, multiple air bags, bigger brakes, ABS system, thicker glass, pretensioner seat belts, bigger wheels and tyres to carry it all and more i can`t think of.

[spebgtsprint]

"Ban low performance driver's not high performance cars".

That is such a simple motto that has been around since the 70's.

And that should apply for ever and a day to come.

If I wanna have a 400+ KW XR8 Sprint or whatever in this day and age, I will do so. I am an honest tax paying adult who doesn't need to be dictated to by some Government plonker on how much power I'm allowed to have. That's called democracy.

[dimka100]

I’m not sure that I will agree with you on that, new 1ltr sports bikes make about 180HP (R1, GSXR1000, CBR1000R) and every new model released they try to squiz out a few extra HP here and there …

The real change however is now coming by integrating a bunch of new car like technologies into bikes such as electronic throttle control, ABS, stability control and so forth …

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

There will be a peak with cars...big bikes have already reached it (my 2008 Suzuki GSX-1400 puts out just over 100hp, virtually the same as one of my former bikes, a 1981 Kawasaki Z1000J, but it "feels" heaps quicker because of a far superior chassis and sweeter handling)...and cars are sure to follow.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Then there's the old saying that says: "Horsepower makes a car quick, but torque makes it pleasant to drive".

Here here, too many people see the badged kw figure as the be all end all, whereas its the torque that makes it move.

Anyway who cares, enjoy the cars why we have them.

[blackf6]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

Go back 15 years and I was gobsmacked by the HSV 5.7 litre stroker with its 215kw and 475nm.. Crazy power..

Then in 2000, I was knocked out cold by the CB4 callaway LS1 with 300kw and 500nm in the HSV GTS. IT had more than enough and I thought can it get any better than this?

Today we have the ridiculous power of the F6 and GT 335. Tune only cars running low 12 or even 11s. Nearing 400rwkw.

These cars are just dangerous. Surely we cannot have more power in years to come. There will get to a point where its just too fangerous to have everyone with such powerful cars. Even 6 cylinder family cars have around 200kw.

Have we hit the ceiling with Power and straight line acceleration? Surely we cant keep going, it will be just too dangerous..

Should we all go out and buy a FPV GT or F6 before the authorities pull the pin on such dangerous cars starting to legislate against certain power to weight etc etc..

It has to come to an end somewhere?

Are you trying to start a super car scare like the 70's? i recon we just go with the flow, and not complain, or else the powers that be will put and end to our fun.

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

Go back 15 years and I was gobsmacked by the HSV 5.7 litre stroker with its 215kw and 475nm.. Crazy power..

Then in 2000, I was knocked out cold by the CB4 callaway LS1 with 300kw and 500nm in the HSV GTS. IT had more than enough and I thought can it get any better than this?

Today we have the ridiculous power of the F6 and GT 335. Tune only cars running low 12 or even 11s. Nearing 400rwkw.

These cars are just dangerous. Surely we cannot have more power in years to come. There will get to a point where its just too fangerous to have everyone with such powerful cars. Even 6 cylinder family cars have around 200kw.

Have we hit the ceiling with Power and straight line acceleration? Surely we cant keep going, it will be just too dangerous..

Should we all go out and buy a FPV GT or F6 before the authorities pull the pin on such dangerous cars starting to legislate against certain power to weight etc etc..

It has to come to an end somewhere?

Interesting thread and having owned 2 x F6's and my current SC Gt-P I can totally relate to your viewpoint.
Surely the current models of these cars are now making a very comfortable suplus of power over and above what you can realistically use anywhere on normal public roads without indulging in hoonish behaviour ?...or am I just getting old ?

What I can't understand is people modifying them for extra power, they make enough in standard tune don't they ?

Personally I'd prefer to see FPV now head down the road of better handling, more refinement, better technology such as xenon lights, proper premium sound, adaptive or adjustable suspension, a decent choice of interior trim and leather colours, radar cruise control, blind spot monitors and such like. Oh yeah better fuel economy through direct injection and other measures along those lines wouldn't go amiss.

I realise by posting this I'm in the minority and most people want ever increasing level's of horsepower in preference to the type of technology and refinement items I've listed, or do they ??

[MAGPIE]

Two words...

weight reduction

That is where it's at, and then focus on ride and handling.

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

Two words...

weight reduction

That is where it's at, and then focus on ride and handling.

Gidday mate. Funny you mention that I watched the megafactory docummentary on the Discovery Channel yesterday that goes through the Jaguar Factory and they showed the construction of the new XJ Jaguar which is almost totally made of aluminium, (12,000 recycled aluminium drink can's goes into an XJ) using what they described as space age contruction techniques.
This morning I looked up the unladen weight of the standard wheelbase supercharged Jaguar XJ 1915 kg's, considerably heavier than either the F6 or Supercharged FPV's. Audi S8 which is also almost all alloy isn't any better from memory. Hmmm, weight reduction for sull sized high performacne sedan's may be easier said than done ??

[irish2]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

But at full noise the 400rwkw modified FG GT will hit a wall at an extra 100km/h compared to your 83 thunderbird. Its not the car, its the gooses we allow behind the steering wheel that will make them dangerous missiles.

Why else did they put a stop to it in the 70s? Japan introduce a ceiling of 206kw?

A KE70 corrolla will reach speeds that will kill/maim all occupants within a matter of seconds. Restricting power will not reduce the number of idiots on the road. If you are willing to wind a car up to high speed and/or perform dangerous manouvers, then this is called evolution. The person/s you take with you, are called unlucky.

[RAPID_BA]

We can't really talk about exotic cars here, they are a statement of what can be produced and buyers pay for it. We don't see too many ferraris or even m5s on every street here.

But let's face it, our fpv models are made to a price, made to be within reach of many and sell on a mass production basis. They also produce well over 300kw and the GT is realistically nudgeing 400kw. It just can't keep on like this.

If we fast forward 100 years will man be running the 100 metre sprint in 7 seconds? Will 9.5s be slow in 100 years?

Its the same with our outputs, surely there has to be a limit on what is safe, we can't just keep getting faster

[AMGC63]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Interesting thread and having owned 2 x F6's and my current SC Gt-P I can totally relate to your viewpoint.
Surely the current models of these cars are now making a very comfortable suplus of power over and above what you can realistically use anywhere on normal public roads without indulging in hoonish behaviour ?...or am I just getting old ?

What I can't understand is people modifying them for extra power, they make enough in standard tune don't they ?

Personally I'd prefer to see FPV now head down the road of better handling, more refinement, better technology such as xenon lights, proper premium sound, adaptive or adjustable suspension, a decent choice of interior trim and leather colours, radar cruise control, blind spot monitors and such like. Oh yeah better fuel economy through direct injection and other measures along those lines wouldn't go amiss.

I realise by posting this I'm in the minority and most people want ever increasing level's of horsepower in preference to the type of technology and refinement items I've listed, or do they ??

You forgot the 8 speed Rodgy, after all, its the most important thing for FPV to address.

I think We're close to the limit performance wise, HSV have flown the KW White flag till atleast 2013.

[Windsor220]

I dont think we have hit a power ceiling yet but I dont think it will be going up that much over the next few years.

They can concentrate on handling, interior quality and options.

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Gidday mate. Funny you mention that I watched the megafactory docummentary on the Discovery Channel yesterday that goes through the Jaguar Factory and they showed the construction of the new XJ Jaguar which is almost totally made of aluminium, (12,000 recycled aluminium drink can's goes into an XJ) using what they described as space age contruction techniques.
This morning I looked up the unladen weight of the standard wheelbase supercharged Jaguar XJ 1915 kg's, considerably heavier than either the F6 or Supercharged FPV's. Audi S8 which is also almost all alloy isn't any better from memory. Hmmm, weight reduction for sull sized high performacne sedan's may be easier said than done ??

No doubt it is easier said than done, but like you say the power doesn't really need to increase.

So the logical angle to take is weight reduction.

Subaru have been very sucessful at this, just compare the weight of a Legacy compared to the Mondeo (wagons in particular).

[steve.zissou]

No offence but thats exactly what people said about the GTHO PIII. OMG its too fast every one will die, think of the children.

Now these days your average falcon 6 is faster and you dont see people launching themselves off on ramps at 200kmh.

my 300rwkw ute isnt outragous (the low down torque is). I actually find 300rwkw quite tame.

People tend to want to live and youd be suprised how well they are able do things in order to stay alive.

I dont see any reason why in 20 years a standard family car wouldnt have 350kw at which point hey will probably have better tyres radar cruise control and crash avoidance along with a million other gizmos to allow muppets to handle that speed safely

edit: + the govt needs fast cars so they can get the revenue from speeding fines and scape goat hoons as opposed to formulating good policy

[AMGC63]

Unfortunately intelligence isnt evolving at the same rate as performance, a 12 second family car is bordering on too fast for the abilities of most people regardless of intelligence levels...

It doenst matter how many KW's it has, its acceleration that pushes the boundaries of ability and intelligence.

[dusty86]

I think I agree with the whole depends on the muppets driving.
In my job I am lucky enough to be able to drive some cool cars. One recently being an FPV gt (some may have seen it at Philip island getting driven by John Bowe) and I must say yes that car is ridiculously quick.
But doesn't put your heart in your mouth like driving a 289 mustang with drum brakes all round :P

[flappist]

Originally Posted by steve.zissou

No offence but thats exactly what people said about the GTHO PIII. OMG its too fast every one will die, think of the children.

Now these days your average falcon 6 is faster and you dont see people launching themselves off on ramps at 200kmh.

my 300rwkw ute isnt outragous (the low down torque is). I actually find 300rwkw quite tame.

People tend to want to live and youd be suprised how well they are able do things in order to stay alive.

I dont see any reason why in 20 years a standard family car wouldnt have 350kw at which point hey will probably have better tyres radar cruise control and crash avoidance along with a million other gizmos to allow muppets to handle that speed safely

edit: + the govt needs fast cars so they can get the revenue from speeding fines and scape goat hoons as opposed to formulating good policy

Yes but a Phase 3 GTHO did not stop or handle even remotely as well as a $10k Korean bubble car. It did not have any of the occupant safety features mandatory in current vehicles.

The greatest problem is that it is impossible to make a falcon or commodore for that matter into a performance vehicle.

The FPV GT is just a XT with a big engine and some bolt on bits. It has the same geometry, suspension structure, aero etc.

A falcon must be able to carry five fat people plus 300kg of luggage as well as pull a caravan on crappy dirt roads while being capable of running a S/C V8, T6, I6, T4 & LPG engine with 16-20" tyres, auto or manual, run on the cheapest crap fuels available, go for yonks without maintenance, be bloody huge and comfortable and cost less that all of its competitors.

A performance car needs to carry 1-2 people very quickly.....that is all.

Ever seen a Nissan GTR or Porsche 911 sedan or wagon LPG V8?

So to make a performance falcon you would have to drop all the flexibility.....and that is not what falcons are about.....

[Falc'man]

The problem arises from people mistaking public roads for racetracks.

We get certain members here that dig the boot into a certain car manufacturer for not making their grand tourer better suited to a smooth as baby's backside racetrack surface.

These armchair critics say this because they read it on drivel.com or Motor magazine and the irony is it was the media who killed off the supercar in the 70's.

Back then (and now) there were more powerful large saloons or derivatives of said saloons, in more densely populated cities and countries than what we made here.

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

Why else did they put a stop to it in the 70s?

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

Two words...

weight reduction

That is where it's at, and then focus on ride and handling.

With all due respect that wont happen on a grand scale with the falcon in a hurry.

Weight reduction and panel modifications are killers with cost.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by graham7773

Danny when you say cars now are heavier, what years are you talking about? I just sold a 1997 VT Commodore Wagon which weighed in at 1700 kilograms on the road. It had ABS brakes, Traction control, independent rear suspension with limited slip differential, larger brakes than the previous VS model and a pathetic 147KWs ex factory. I really do not understand cars being built for general road use having hundreds of kilowatts and Nm of torque. Where on a public road in Australia can this power be safely/legally used?

Clearly I wasn't talking about a VT Wagon.

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

I dont think the guys born in the 50s or 60s have seen what we see. Cars that had 150kw were considered a muscle car scare and did 16's down the quarter mile? We are all seeing such a dangerous period together for the first time...now

I dont think we can put the current super output levels with that generation.

We can only go so far with safety. The current cars worst safety attribute is pure speed and acceleration.... when there is a collission. speed is getting higher and higher (acceleration better and better in any given road).

The old days lucky if you would hit 70km an hour on full noise up the street.

Based on what knowledge mate? You're just assuming the supercar scare was to do with a conservative society getting frightened over numbers a Hyndai i30 could pull now, well delve a little deeper into the history books. Simple search will bring up;

Falcon GTHO - 225kW
Boss 429 Mustang - Excess of 360kW
Plymouth RoadRunner 68 model - 317kW
1970 Plymouth Hemi-Cuda - 425hp, 0-100 in 5.6s
68' Chev Corvette L88 550hp
Chevelle SS 66' - 280kW

That's just a quick search and constitutes the tip of the iceberg for 60's-70's muscle.. Don't forget, road tolls were HUGE in this era, many cars did not have even seatbelts.

I really don't get why you think we are all in for disaster.

I totally disagree with you, we are not approaching a dangerous era, cars nowadays are so safe, they make their power more predictably, and are as efficient as ever. Most cars with 300+kW nowadays have the safety systems and handling packages to match.

With power comes responsibility - If you don't want a 300+kW car, then don't buy one. If you do want one, buy one, turn the traction and ESP systems off and write yourself off at 200km/h, then maybe the car wasn't the one to blame...

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by Polyal

With all due respect that wont happen on a grand scale with the falcon in a hurry.

Weight reduction and panel modifications are killers with cost.

Why would you want it to happen on a grand scale, I thought we were talking performance.

ie FPV

[jpd80]

I remember when XD-XF Falcons were new and came with around 94Kw and 305 nm and weighted 1250-1300 Kg
These days the diesel Focus weighs about the same, has similar power and torque but gives way better economy.
The trade off is of course that the interior is not as roomy as the older Falcon...

I see cars getting more compact and achieving weight reduction by enlarging smaller vehicles to the next size.
It may not sound right until you actually get into some of these modern "small cars" and feel the difference...

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

The problem arises from people mistaking public roads for racetracks.

^^Yup...

Let's not kid ourselves, the Falcon and Commodore are not High Performance vehicles, in their FPV/HSV guise they are just family sedans with a few bolt on bit's to make them go faster. What we have in the Falcon and Commodore is a compromise, and you can only take that concept so far and still be able to produce a safe and financially viable product....

If you want a true High Performance vehicle you need to start off with a clean fresh canvas......

[2011G6E]

Interesting article by James May in the latest Top Gear magazine...he says that if you use a racetrack (the 'Ring was his example) to formulate the chassis for a street car, you will end up with a car which goes round a race track very very well...but that's the point. The road isn't a racetrack, and it's very very hard to make a car that goes round a racetrack well be comfortable and well-mannered on then road...there always have to be compromises, which wouldn't exist if you ignored the racetrack and instead formulated the chassis of the car for the real world roads it will be driven on...then you'd end up with a car that might not go around a racetrack very well, but by jesus it'd be good on the highway and city streets.

You could also equally say the road isn't a dragstrip...outright horsepower figures have always been of interest to me, but only in an acedemic way as they are not really relevant. I want to know what the whole package is like. Does it handle well, does it turn in nicely and carry it's mass well through a corner on sometimes uneven surfaces, does it get off the line smartly but not in a rediculous manner that means you have to remember to feather the throttle if the road surface is imperfect because of wheelspin issues, can it sit for hour after hour on the highway and not rattle my fillings loose?

I'd prefer the companies spent a little more time on chassis theory than worried about spending hundreds of millions developing bigger and bigger engines with a few extra kilowatts over last years model...

[RAPID_BA]

Lets take stock...

Fast forward 10 years, When the pimply faced p-platers get their full license, they wil be jumping into the cheapest fully depreciated 300kw+ hsv/fpv with poor maintenence, worn brake pads and bald/cheap tyres, worn suspension components, but with power mods like tunes, exhaust etc.. Maybe exchaser rims on the rear too

Dead set sleds but with compromised safety. Missiles with compromised safety, worn safety systems and gooses behind the wheel.

[FreddyDUZ747]

P platers arent allowed to drive these kinds of vehicles,well not the pimply ones.

Geez,M series not exotic,well our new/old FPV's are just gunkers then aye?

Pfffft,usual suspects.....

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

Why would you want it to happen on a grand scale, I thought we were talking performance.

ie FPV

Arn't Holden moving to some aluminium panels and they're talking about saving 15 kg's of weight, crikey that's not much. Legacy and Outback are relativly light for their size but we're takling about full sized performance sedan's here making over 300 kw's and obviously they're going to have quite different components than a regular Legacy.

I wonder just a thought, can anyone think of a any 300KW plus full sized performance sedan under say 1750 kg's ?

Anyway its not going to happen with a Ford / FPV, there's no way they could build an all aluminium car let alone at a price that the market would stand.

[FreddyDUZ747]

VZ HSV Rodge?

[Rodge]

^^ Currently in production mate.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

Lets take stock...

Fast forward 10 years, When the pimply faced p-platers get their full license, they wil be jumping into the cheapest fully depreciated 300kw+ hsv/fpv with poor maintenence, worn brake pads and bald/cheap tyres, worn suspension components, but with power mods like tunes, exhaust etc.. Maybe exchaser rims on the rear too

As opposed to the 351 XD I bought coming off my P's and the 350 HX I bought after it - both very quick, handled like boats, no computer trickery helping keep it on the road if I screw up and the only safety feature in case of an accident was a seatbelt.

You're building a strawman.. just like you normally do.