Speed Camera Inquiry

[Auslandau]

Interesting to see ACA actually bag out the use of cameras showing the best (According to money collected) in Aust. The infamous Wellington Rd on Eastlink at nearing $25,000,000.00 per year. Not bad for 1 solitary camera! The g'ment will fight tooth and nail to keep them where they are and keep the margin of a few percent.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

Interesting to see ACA actually bag out the use of cameras showing the best (According to money collected) in Aust. The infamous Wellington Rd on Eastlink at nearing $25,000,000.00 per year. Not bad for 1 solitary camera! The g'ment will fight tooth and nail to keep them where they are and keep the margin of a few percent.

Yep this could get interesting.

If they keep it up for a while it may start to worry those coming up to elections.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by flappist

Yep this could get interesting.

If they keep it up for a while it may start to worry those coming up to elections.

With the elections coming up in Nov it surprises me that it is not on the agenda. When it is, it's just beaten down by the "Don't speed and you wont get fined" brigade. A digression of 3km/h in a 70 zone is not worthy of the massive penalty.

[Revolver]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

With the elections coming up in Nov it surprises me that it is not on the agenda. When it is, it's just beaten down by the "Don't speed and you wont get fined" brigade. A digression of 3km/h in a 70 zone is not worthy of the massive penalty.

Yes it does "Every K over is a killer." - Well thats what the big sign said on the highway....

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by Blue Beast II

Yes it does "Every K over is a killer." - Well thats what the big sign said on the highway....

That's absolutely TRUE. It's near impossible to get killed doing the speed limit. But doing 2 over you might as well pre book your funeral.

Speeding and drink driving are the main 2 road rules police and the government enforce.
Drink driving is fair enough.

Perhaps they make so much off small speed infringements because 9 times out of 10 that road is probably safe for an extra 10km/h above the posted speed limit. If they had reasonable speed limit in all places, not many people would speed.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by InTrail

I work on the other side of the mic to you ltd and if we were to police the rules of the air as stringently as speed is, then I'd spend half my day filling in paperwork. Unless it creates an unsafe situation or is a blatent breach, then we'll usually just try to educate and remedy the immediate problem.

Hey, police it all you want. Most people I know would give resounding applause to Air Services Australia. On the other hand, reprimanding pilots without notice and sending a fine in the mail 2 weeks later would do nothing short of raise revenue and **** people off.
As you said, educate and remedy.
In this instance the educate part takes place by police informing the driver of what they did wrong when they'd pull them over.
Police by proxy is never going to work, its one sided and only serves to annoy people whilst stuffing state coffers.

BTW, anyone who says don't speed is an ignoramus; it's impossible to monitor your speed 100% of the time especially given the amount of vehicles on the road that you have to monitor around you.

[AussieAV]

Originally Posted by ltd

BTW, anyone who says don't speed is an ignoramus; it's impossible to monitor your speed 100% of the time especially given the amount of vehicles on the road that you have to monitor around you.

Well said. I feel a good driver is constantly monitoring their surroundings and driving to the conditions, not constantly monitoring their speedo.

There was a study in Europe a few years back (got a little TV coverage at the time) that showed drivers who regularly drove at 5-10% over posted speed limits were involved in less crashes. They made a point of saying its not the extra speed that makes them safe, its that they were drivers who drove to the conditions, and most of the time posted limits are well within the safe speed on most roads, on a clear dry day.

IIRC, the study also showed these same drivers were more likely to travel below the posted limit in adverse or dangerous weather/traffic conditions or when visibility was low.

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

With the elections coming up in Nov it surprises me that it is not on the agenda. When it is, it's just beaten down by the "Don't speed and you wont get fined" brigade. A digression of 3km/h in a 70 zone is not worthy of the massive penalty.

I have been accused before on here of being one of the "Don't speed and you wont get fined" brigade. (to clarify my position, I am actually one of the "If you get caught, don't scream revenue" brigade).
Couple of things ...in Qld, I think the minnimum fine for speeding is $133, not sure what it is in Victoria, but if it is similar, then that could mean that up to 188000 people are being stung by this 1 camera alone per year .If only 50% of those people were so concerned that they had been the victim of a revenue grab, and were actually willing to do/say something about it, then I would think it couldn't fail but to be on a political agenda.
I actually do agree with probably everyone here that " A digression of 3km/h in a 70 zone is not worthy of the massive penalty", so why is it that 188000 people are not making the pollies squirm (and bear in mind that this camera is not taking pictures all across Victoria, it is static, ie in 1 electorate and flashing said numbers of people from that 1 electorate for the most part).
Before I am quoted on numbers, I only speculate in rough terms, but you get the idea

[Wardo]

Originally Posted by AussieAV

Always gets me when they quote figures saying speed was a contributing factor. What does this mean??

My understanding is speed can listed as a contributing factor if the officer believes the speed was inappropriate for the conditions.

For example an accident when raining at 40km\h in a 60 zone can have speed listed as a contributing factor if the officer investigating thinks you should have been going slower.

You could in theory have a speed camera installed due to speeding related accidents when many were actually under the speed limit. Makes the whole think a bit shaky in my eyes.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by zdcol71

I have been accused before on here of being one of the "Don't speed and you wont get fined" brigade. (to clarify my position, I am actually one of the "If you get caught, don't scream revenue" brigade).
Couple of things ...in Qld, I think the minnimum fine for speeding is $133, not sure what it is in Victoria, but if it is similar, then that could mean that up to 188000 people are being stung by this 1 camera alone per year .If only 50% of those people were so concerned that they had been the victim of a revenue grab, and were actually willing to do/say something about it, then I would think it couldn't fail but to be on a political agenda.
I actually do agree with probably everyone here that " A digression of 3km/h in a 70 zone is not worthy of the massive penalty", so why is it that 188000 people are not making the pollies squirm (and bear in mind that this camera is not taking pictures all across Victoria, it is static, ie in 1 electorate and flashing said numbers of people from that 1 electorate for the most part).
Before I am quoted on numbers, I only speculate in rough terms, but you get the idea

Maybe because every time they make a comment on how the cameras are unfair and revinue raisers some wowser with a Sir Galahad complex stomps all over them with their holier than thou rhetoric such as.....

"Don't speed and you wont get fined" brigade. (to clarify my position, I am actually one of the "If you get caught, don't scream revenue" brigade).

....vilifying them to their peers and bullying them into submission and acceptance.

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by flappist

Maybe because every time they make a comment on how the cameras are unfair and revinue raisers some wowser with a Sir Galahad complex stomps all over them with their holier than thou rhetoric such as.....

"Don't speed and you wont get fined" brigade. (to clarify my position, I am actually one of the "If you get caught, don't scream revenue" brigade).

....vilifying them to their peers and bullying them into submission and acceptance.

Boy.. and to think I came within an inch of actually agreeing with you,.. I think I lack the eloquence and you may have missed my point.

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

Interesting to see ACA actually bag out the use of cameras showing the best (According to money collected) in Aust. The infamous Wellington Rd on Eastlink at nearing $25,000,000.00 per year. Not bad for 1 solitary camera! The g'ment will fight tooth and nail to keep them where they are and keep the margin of a few percent.

25mil?
Hey, wonder how many hundred (thousand) cameras we need to cover the costs of the Desall plant rip-off?
Try 5.5 BILLION... PLUS 553 Million per year for next 30 years!!
(Off topic, I know... But fairdinkum, I'm up to HERE with this government)

[flappist]

Originally Posted by zdcol71

Boy.. and to think I came within an inch of actually agreeing with you,.. I think I lack the eloquence and you may have missed my point.

Agreeing with me or not is not all that relevent, how you see the world is.

The world is not black and white.

While a person sees things in black and white rather than grey or even coloured they can only contribute in a negative way.

A number on a sign put there by a beaurocrat because it fitted into a form made by another beaurocrat is not an absolute.

Support of the extortion of motorists under the guise of "road safety" without any reasoning or logic other than "it is the law" is no different to supporting the genocide of the Tasmanian Aborigine or Kanaka slavery both of which were perfectly legal under the laws of the time.
How can it be wrong? It is the law..........

Questioning the law is the last fundamental right of any free person and is something that GovCo and social engineers both professional and amateur would love to extinguish.

[davessleepin351]

I saw that thing about that 25 mill dollar per year speed camera. Its crazy. I went through a 40 zone on the national highway today with NOTHING AT ALL going on anywhere except 1 policeman on the otherside of it with a radar gun. Its like he's either seen a golden opportunity to screw some average civilians out of some money. or get the 40 zone up himself just to catch some people. (didnt get me thank god).

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by flappist

Agreeing with me or not is not all that relevent, how you see the world is.

The world is not black and white.

While a person sees things in black and white rather than grey or even coloured they can only contribute in a negative way.

A number on a sign put there by a beaurocrat because it fitted into a form made by another beaurocrat is not an absolute
Support of the extortion of motorists under the guise of "road safety" without any reasoning or logic other than "it is the law" is no different to supporting the genocide of the Tasmanian Aborigine or Kanaka slavery both of which were perfectly legal under the laws of the time.
How can it be wrong? It is the law..........

Questioning the law is the last fundamental right of any free person and is something that GovCo and social engineers both professional and amateur would love to extinguish.

Sigh... again, I think you missed my point.
Don't know how you construed what I said into " Support of the extortion of motorists under the guise of "road safety" without any reasoning or logic other than "it is the law"
I am actually questioning why upwards of 180000 people aren't up in arms at GovCo etc.
I understand very well why a huge percentage of people on this forum are passionate about speed cameras and associated revenue..I have said before, many have a vested interest, but when so many of the general populace are being affected in such large numbers, one wonders just how far can people be pushed before change is affected. Again I will say, surely this amount of people are actually able to make a change or excert some type of political or legal pressure, or... are people a) (gasp) happy enough to put up with this because it just doesn't affect them as much as it does some people on here, or b) we may be (as hinted in so many other posts and threads here) just too apathetic to do anything about it.
By the way, I'm not sure that questioning the law is the last fundemental right of any free person, but I am the other side of 50 and was a teen in Brisbane in the 70s and won't ever be guilty of not questioning the law.

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

Interesting to see ACA actually bag out the use of cameras showing the best (According to money collected) in Aust. The infamous Wellington Rd on Eastlink at nearing $25,000,000.00 per year. Not bad for 1 solitary camera! The g'ment will fight tooth and nail to keep them where they are and keep the margin of a few percent.

I missed the ACA thing this week (I actually thought I saw it advertised for TodayTonight)

I cant find it online (I am admittedly stupid)
Does someone have a link to it ?

[sarrge2001]

Originally Posted by ltd

.......the educate part takes place by police informing the driver of what they did wrong when they'd pull them over.

Yep, dead right.

This recently happend to me in outback NT. Highway Patrol nabbed me, chatted me, cautioned me and off I went on my merry way - on the speed limit of 130! I wouldn't have done that with a speed camera.

The most surprising thing is that despite the speed i was doing, when i pulled over, there wasn't a trail of dead kittens, children and grandmothers in my wake. I thought that's what happened if you speed?

[irish2]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Another thing that annoys me about them is that when people realise their positions, they all drive like morons around them, today there was a mobile speed camera set up on my way home, and someone dropped from 100 to 60km/h to go past it, then sped back up to 100 again.

So you were driving through a 60 zone? haha.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by zdcol71

Sigh... again, I think you missed my point.
Don't know how you construed what I said into " Support of the extortion of motorists under the guise of "road safety" without any reasoning or logic other than "it is the law"
I am actually questioning why upwards of 180000 people aren't up in arms at GovCo etc.
I understand very well why a huge percentage of people on this forum are passionate about speed cameras and associated revenue..I have said before, many have a vested interest, but when so many of the general populace are being affected in such large numbers, one wonders just how far can people be pushed before change is affected. Again I will say, surely this amount of people are actually able to make a change or excert some type of political or legal pressure, or... are people a) (gasp) happy enough to put up with this because it just doesn't affect them as much as it does some people on here, or b) we may be (as hinted in so many other posts and threads here) just too apathetic to do anything about it.
By the way, I'm not sure that questioning the law is the last fundemental right of any free person, but I am the other side of 50 and was a teen in Brisbane in the 70s and won't ever be guilty of not questioning the law.

And I suspect you missed mine.

I put forward that the reason why many do not rebel against this is the vilification received from others who, like you have on here MANY times, have used or implied the "You won't be fined if you don't speed" mantra.

Racism is not a problem.....you won't get beaten up if you don't go out.......
Cyber bullying is not a problem....just don't have a phone or computer.....

All the same thing but two of those don't sound right do they......

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by flappist

And I suspect you missed mine.

I put forward that the reason why many do not rebel against this is the vilification received from others who, like you have on here MANY times, have used or implied the "You won't be fined if you don't speed" mantra.

Racism is not a problem.....you won't get beaten up if you don't go out.......
Cyber bullying is not a problem....just don't have a phone or computer.....

All the same thing but two of those don't sound right do they......

You seem to be acting as some kind of social concience for the poor people who (apparently) are being vilified by the likes of me who happen to believe that if you don't speed, you won't be fined,(contrary to what you suggest "You won't be fined if you don't speed") .
To paraphrase the examples you use, Apathy is not a problem...you just won't get any sympathy from me if you are not prepared (in the numbers that seem apparent here) to get out there and change things!!

[V8 Man]

The biggest problem with speed cameras (as opposed to plod) IMHO is that they enforce the LETTER of the law, rather than the SPIRIT of the law. The spirit of the law is that you should drive to the conditions, the letter of the law is that you must not exceed the posted limit, regardless of circumstances.

Example,
1) You are driving along a quiet street on a beautiful clear day, at 5 km over the posted limit, speed camera takes your portrait and in the next 2 weeks you receive a a nasty surprise in the mail.
2) Same scenario, but this time blue man is hiding in the bushes with a radar gun, he sees that you are "technically" speeding, but, having a brain in his head, he is able to realise that you are not doing anything dangerous (ie. you are driving to the conditions) and he doesn't even bother to pull you over.

However, we all know that State Governments (due to their inept fiscal management) need this revenue stream to balance their budgets, so I really think that, unfortunately, speed cameras are here to stay.

[mrbaxr6t]

while fixed speed cameras are a pain in the sphincter the mobile suckers really grind me up they have created a nation of drivers that are on the eyeball for parked cars and will brake (speeding or not) for fear of being taxed by "the man" but remember they save lives <cough>

Originally Posted by daily mail

Speed cameras have triggered at least 28,000 crashes since 2001, according to new research.

The devices also cause motorists to drive erratically, to not concentrate on the road and to brake suddenly when one comes into sight, a study has revealed.

More than 80 per cent of drivers said they look at their speedometers rather than the cars in front when they approach a speed camera, a poll by insurance company LV revealed.

A third of more than 1,500 motorists quizzed said they had witnessed an accident or a near-miss as a result of drivers' erratic behaviour caused by the machines.

And five per cent admitted they brake suddenly to avoid getting a fine, risking rear-end shunts.

Research by ICM revealed that speed cameras are a contributory factor in one per cent of all road traffic accidents.

DFT figures since 2001 estimates the number of crashes at 2.7 million – meaning the cameras have been involved in 27,900 accidents since 2001.

John O'Roarke, spokesman for LV, said: 'Speed cameras have been a feature on UK roads for almost 20 years, yet the feedback from drivers is that while they may reduce speed they also appear to impair driving ability or at the least concentration on the road.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ts-decade.html

and to the "dont speed brigade" I ask this how many incidents like the ones outlined in the article have you been involved in? but remember "dont speed"

[dogfish]

Originally Posted by AussieAV

Most of the rhetoric is just finding ways to justify why the only thing they focus on is speed, as they are addicted to the revenue it produces. Never once heard a report on what the causes of the other 77.5% of fatalities are, or what they are doing to stop them!

I have never thought of this and it's a bloody great point.
Who do I ask about the other 77.5% and why aren't they doing anything.
I need to know.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by zdcol71

so why is it that 188000 people are not making the pollies squirm (and bear in mind that this camera is not taking pictures all across Victoria, it is static, ie in 1 electorate and flashing said numbers of people from that 1 electorate for the most part).
Before I am quoted on numbers, I only speculate in rough terms, but you get the idea

Its called apathy .... easier to whinge these days rather than do anything about it and I am probably in that basket as well

The "Don't speed and you wont get fined" doesn't work as everyone does speed and those that do not admit to it are kidding themselves ........ it is impossible not to.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by zdcol71

You seem to be acting as some kind of social concience for the poor people who (apparently) are being vilified by the likes of me who happen to believe that if you don't speed, you won't be fined,(contrary to what you suggest "You won't be fined if you don't speed") .
To paraphrase the examples you use, Apathy is not a problem...you just won't get any sympathy from me if you are not prepared (in the numbers that seem apparent here) to get out there and change things!!

Well I have been on two party policy committees on traffic act policies, have written several papers on road safety including one of those in the current speed camera enquiry.

Now what have you done?

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by dogfish

I have never thought of this and it's a bloody great point.
Who do I ask about the other 77.5% and why aren't they doing anything.
I need to know.

They probably don't do anything about it because they can't make money from it.

Most people on here are porbabaly on a full license, so if you are caught doing 1-10 over the limit you will only lose 1 point. But (green)P platers that are caught doing 1-10 over lose 4 points! And only have 7 to start with.
So how is it fair for us that we lose more, but already have less to start with. That's why I get so ****ed off with these mobile cameras.

If I am caught unintentionally doing 5 over the limit, then a week later I am caught doing the same thing again, My license will be gone, before I even know about the First offense.
And that is really annoying for me as a P plater who drivers 40 to 50,000kms a year.

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by flappist

Well I have been on two party policy committees on traffic act policies, have written several papers on road safety including one of those in the current speed camera enquiry.

Now what have you done?

Nothing so grand nor noble, flappist.
I merely joined an automotive forum to exchange opinions on various topics. One common thread that keeps coming up( in the topics I tend to be interested in), is a somewhat overwhelming tendancy of a lot of people to choose the easy route when trying to find answers to these issues. The very simplest response to the road toll seems to be, after the usual gnashing of teeth and anecdotal input, "speed cameras...don't save lives...revenue raising....
I'm not sure that speed cameras (and note that I have never called them safety cameras), actually save lives. I have often suggested that since, and maybe as a result of their introduction,the road toll has declined.
There will obviously be a whole raft of reasons why this is the case. People like you who have supplied input to any number of commitees is probably one. Many more educated and passionate people have also contributed to the legislation that dictates what I and everyone else on the road is allowed to do,and I certainly don't mean just the pollies (who may or may not give a toss about anything other than a gold travel pass at the end of their tenure) .
If, on the other hand, speed cameras do not save lives and are in fact a blatant grab for government revenue, then in my opinion,so be it.We all know they are there, we all know why they are there, we all go through them at the rate of (example) 180000 per year! What are people complaining about!!?? Either put up with it, like I do, and pay the fine when I break the speed limit (again, I have never said I agree with the veracity of set speed limits or otherwise), or do something about it!! I for one choose not to be concerned with speed cameras, they are not the reason young kids are being killed on the roads, and they are not the answer to young kids being killed on the roads. The legislation that has evolved around road usage since I started driving in 1976, along with a great deal of input from concerned parents and peers, and a great deal of respect for the stupidity of a lot of others on the road, has kept me intact till now. If your input into commitees and party papers has contributed to that then I thank you, ...if the knowledge that I impart to my kids or someone elses kids helps see them through 30+ years of driving,with the help of the legislators, or the paper writers or (heaven help us) the opinionated forum posters, then job well done to all. But I will be pretty ****ed off when most people are still reverting to the old GovCo...blah..revenue raising...blah socialist... nazi...mantra that seems to be the answer on here so often.
Ps. I am, as I'm sure others are, happy to read what you have written.

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

Its called apathy .... easier to whinge these days rather than do anything about it and I am probably in that basket as well

The "Don't speed and you wont get fined" doesn't work as everyone does speed and those that do not admit to it are kidding themselves ........ it is impossible not to.

Exactly, (this is what I posted previously)
"Apathy is not a problem...you just won't get any sympathy from me if you are not prepared (in the numbers that seem apparent here) to get out there and change things!!"
I have been fined ,and demerited many times(have never lost my licence due to an accumulation of demerits), yes we all do it.

[AussieAV]

Hope this isn't too far OT, I promise to make a reference to speeding.

I predict that some people will champion popular public causes to have a chance to be very influential in the next few years and potentially change things like speed camera guidlines.

Now that people have seen how much of a windfall it can be for their area to elect an independant local member, independants are likely to have a far greater chance in the next couple of state and federal elections.

If they trumpet that they will champion popular causes such as review of speeding fine enforcement (assuming its as widley disliked in the general public as it is here) they may just get in.

Either that or the major parties may be so scared of loosing further ground to independants and, God forbid, have true democracy break out, they may actually listen to public opinion next time. (We can dream)

[davessleepin351]

Well I have been on two party policy committees on traffic act policies, have written several papers on road safety including one of those in the current speed camera enquiry.

Now what have you done?
__________________

If there is anything I can help with on this subject, my levels of "up for startin some ******" is at a all time high...