What defines MUSCLE in muscle car ???

[martinijosh]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

Corvette is a sports car..
68 70 Camaro and 65 to 72 Mustang..
Yes GTOs and Dodge Chargers..
With factory spec performance engine..

68 70 Camaro and 65 to 72 Mustang - pony cars (cheap "sporty" car)
GTO - Gran Turismo Omologato (I personally think the pontiac gto is really a GTB car... but anyway)


Just picked this one up-
The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines muscle cars as "any of a group of American-made 2-door sports coupes with powerful engines designed for high-performance driving."

An easy and fairly accurate way to explain it without fuss...

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by z80

Just one word.

Corvette.

Sports car actually...



"Muscle car" doesn't need to exsist in a time-bubble, that is only to refer to cars of the mid sixites to early 70's with big engines, small brakes, lots of power but little cornering finess.

I believe the term is ment to actually describe larger american performance cars (GTO Torino, Charger etc), while "Pony cars" are the mid size (Mustang, camero etc). But, as time goes on, most people refer to mustangs as muscle cars.

Come to present day, does "modern" technology make muscle obsolete?

So, take a XR6T...muscle?

Yes.

Its a large RWD sedan with bucket loads of power, much like a GTHO (oh no i didn't! ) in essance.

Remember that OHC's, turbos etc are as old as muscle cars them selves, and if ford had its way SOHC motors would have made its way into Torinos, and only chrome bumpers? Ford fairlane Thunderblot had fiberglass bumpers...

In realliy there is "classic muscle" and "modern muscle"...

Might be hard to chew, but its the truth.

[350125GO]

Originally Posted by martinijosh

68 70 Camaro and 65 to 72 Mustang - pony cars (cheap "sporty" car)
GTO - Gran Turismo Omologato (I personally think the pontiac gto is really a GTB car... but anyway)


Just picked this one up-
The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines muscle cars as "any of a group of American-made 2-door sports coupes with powerful engines designed for high-performance driving."

An easy and fairly accurate way to explain it without fuss...

Would have to agree with this rather than specific models, although 2 doors only is a bit USA specific. Oh and the made in USA part.

[Ben73]

I reckon a basic RWD car, with a big V8 which produces tyre shredding power.
I also automatically associate Superchargers with muscles cars. Not so much Turbos.

[BENT_8]

muscle car- Old School 50's-70's, powerful engine be it 6 or 8, under braked, manual steer.

Performance car- forced induction/large capacity n/a, handling upgrades, brake upgrades, body kits big wheels/tyres.

Obviously there are exceptions to the rules, but this basically seperates true muscle from modern performance.

[Angeldust]

what about from a drivers prospective?

my vy drives like my torana, (without the friggin rattles though, yet)

[Burnout]

A couple of US Journos came up with the name “Muscle Car Era”. Truth is it only lasted a few years...... from '66 to '71.
It most likely started when Ford, Dearborn, tossed a couple of new Hemi-heads on the FE Side Oiler block & went racing.. Boy, they went racing! They needed to sell some units to the punters to get through the rules so it was sold as a Crate Motor in dealerships from 1966.
You could drive your Tank Fairlane in on Saturday morning, part with $US2200.00 and take it home swap the motor in an afternoon and pop up on Saturday night on your local cruise with a 427SOHC, running the then all new 1150cfm Holley Dominator 4 barrel. It even came with cast iron headers.

At the same time Ford were flogging off the Windsor with basically twin cam Clevo heads. They were already flogging the 302 Windsor with basically Cleveland Heads. That was the start and as I said Ford went racing...... the SOHC lasted two years and won everything at the drags and on the track over there, so it was factored out of contention, (I mean you can’t have one manufacturer winning everything, can you).
By 67 - 68 they were all into it, Dodge with the big block Hemis & semi hemis, Chev were even shoving truck engines into everything… and so on. It was the last great horse power war…… it all came to an end when the first oil shock hit in late ’71.
If you look at the dates above you can see how it all came over here on the back of the local Falcon GT, and so we here, in Australia had our own little horsepower war.
Was it all just jingoistic nonsense? No, it was salesmanship egged on by the manufacturers no doubt. I remember reading Wheels, Modern Motor and almost wanting to sell my horse……

[mash again]

Attachment 71554

does this count, power assisted drums, one reasonable stop from speed if ya lucky. 350ci massive chrome bumper, poorer cousin to the GTO (the original muscle car was the GTO)

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by martinijosh

Just picked this one up-
The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines muscle cars as "any of a group of American-made 2-door sports coupes with powerful engines designed for high-performance driving."

An easy and fairly accurate way to explain it without fuss...

Yep it does doesn't it

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

Over powered, under braked, chrome bumper, carbureted, heavy, loud and requires some muscle to drive them. There is NOTHING after the 70's that came into this category ........ no matter how hard they tried .... and that discounts everything from VY's to FG GT's. A 'modern' car that is overpowered and under braked is just badly engineered. Back then that was the way it was.

agree, but with the addition of - it needs to have at least 350ci and has to be able to tow a fully loaded inboard v8 ski boat
in my opinion, muscle isn't just speed - it means having the muscle/tourque to effortlessly move any realistic load

a torana, bolwell or 6 cyl valiants are not muscle to me

[RAREV8]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

Over powered, under braked, chrome bumper, carbureted, heavy, loud and requires some muscle to drive them. There is NOTHING after the 70's that came into this category ........ no matter how hard they tried .... and that discounts everything from VY's to FG GT's. A 'modern' car that is overpowered and under braked is just badly engineered. Back then that was the way it was.

Agreed ^^^^ with the small caveat that a muscle car is a 2 door coupe.....good in a straight line not necessarily so good in corners- 4 door cars with V8's are cool but by definition not muscle cars

[jpd80]

The muscle car term was actually born from GM dealers doing creative ordering of near stock sedans and hardtops
but through a sleight of hand in the ordering system were able to be supplied with much larger big block engines.
As the process refined, people wanted Big blocks and Hi Po engines in their favorite US sports cars and so it began...

[Rodge]

I heard a GTHO in full cry the other day and it was truly majic. They're not fast by modern V8 standards but OMG the sound is to die for. Nowdays we have the PC brigade telling us all our cars must be under a certain decible limit. Really loud old school V8 sound is the key ingrediant IMHO.

[302 XC]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

agree, but with the addition of - it needs to have at least 350ci and has to be able to tow a fully loaded inboard v8 ski boat
in my opinion, muscle isn't just speed - it means having the muscle/tourque to effortlessly move any realistic load

a torana, bolwell or 6 cyl valiants are not muscle to me

I use a 6 pot nissan patrol as a tow rig, it will pull anything i give it
It will pull way more loads than my XC would dream off
But it aint no muscle car
The turbo diesel 4by thats nearly finished puts out my torque at the wheels than the XC, and will definately tow more, again its no muscle car
And the 4bies will both give the XC a run for the money


edit :
The first thing i took of the XC was the towbar,missus asked why ???

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by 302 XC

I use a 6 pot nissan patrol as a tow rig, it will pull anything i give it
It will pull way more loads than my XC would dream off
But it aint no muscle car
The turbo diesel 4by thats nearly finished puts out my torque at the wheels than the XC, and will definately tow more, again its no muscle car
And the 4bies will both give the XC a run for the money

true, but do they have 350 or more cubic inches, carby and all of the other items in the post i quoted

others have already alluded to the fact that later model cars will run rings around so called muscle cars for performance and comfort - but then that is generally not what muscle cars are about

we could use the american definition, but then not many of our cars would fit the criteria, because most were sedans - and even the coupes were watered down within 2 years of being built, so most of them would not qualify

[Nikked]

How about "muscle" doesn't describe the car its self, but, the feeling created through owning and driving one?

[Angeldust]

Thats what i said previously.

If i got in my car blindfolded, it would feel like a damn Muscle car. It would drive like one too.


Everyone has a different definition. IMO There is NO definition thats definite.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Nikked

How about "muscle" doesn't describe the car its self, but, the feeling created through owning and driving one?

to me, it is more about the engine involved and the muscle it puts out

either way, everyone has their interpretation and whether they are right, wrong or neither, it doesn't really matter. to the true definition, australia doesn't have many muscle cars (if any), so that means we all have make our own criteria. many would not agree with me, because i do not and will not consider xu-1's, a9x's or 6 cyl valiants as muscle cars - doesn't make me right though, just opinionated

[jpd80]

I think the new 580 hp ZL1 Camaro and the 650 hp GT500 Mustang are worthy successors.

Both of those showroom cars are a step above our FPVs and HSVs and well deserving of the "Muscle Car" tag.

[PIG250]

Not a muscle car itself but id say the end of Australias muscle car era was the Valiant shape. The last real 100% Aussie muscle car would have to be the XB GT

[ebxr8240]

They big and heavy requiring MUSCLE to drive them...
Esp in manual steering form...

[billy302]

The History of muscle cars started in the 1940's and early 1950's.
The Dukes of Hazard is a play on this.
Moonshine runners and their toys. But probably the best totally dedicated Muscle car was the 1966 Pontiac GTO.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pontiac_GTO_1966.jpg
http://musclecars.howstuffworks.com/...cars-work3.htm

[z80]

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

I'm reasonably sure that Corvettes were getting spanked in acceleration and topspeed in 1978 by Dodge Monaco police cars (last of the 440 wedge engines) .. was only once Mopar changed to the gawd-aweful St Regis 318 cars that Corvette owners were safe again .. so maybe an 1980 Vette was "muscular"? (until the Buick GNX turbo V6 showed up in the mid-eighties ..

That may have been the case then...but Corvettes are the ducks' guts now and the definition of a 2012 muscle car.

I've just driven one for a week and can guarantee you it is a scarey piece of work....6.2 litres of shaking V8 brutality.

Loud,thirsty, uncomfortable and sheer muscle.

In stock form it is a sub 4 second 0-100 performer....normally aspirated.

Imagine the most modified XR6 turbo...then think faster without boost.

I can vouch that at 150 mph it still has two gears to go....

[DBourne]

lol @ 3mpg

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by PIG250

Not a muscle car itself but id say the end of Australias muscle car era was the Valiant shape. The last real 100% Aussie muscle car would have to be the XB GT

it was well over before some stale old valiant or watered down XB GT....

[OzJavelin]

Originally Posted by martinijosh

Well, as basic as the C3 is, it can still take a corner reasonably well (despite being built from the same technology as the C2 which was 16-18 years old at that point...)

I'd love to see the Monaco attempt a corner The general vettes were more based around balance, not just POOWWWWWWER. But the c3's with the 427 and 454's fixed that right up huh?

According to my copy of "Dodge, Plymouth and Chrysler Police Cars: 1956-1978" .. "The 440ci powered Mopar squads will always be remembered .. They were the champions of an era then police officers gave pursuit regardless .. the squads were up to the task too. These cars could do 130-150mph and had the cooling capacity to do it all day long. Those cars also had the brakes, suspension, and tires to back up the big-block. In fact the tactic of some LAPD freeway interceptor pilots was to cathc the violators as they exited, where brakes, suspension and tires counted the most .. In 1978 [the big-block Plymouth Fury] was Americas fastest car. Not just the fastest four-door sedan. Not just the fastest police car. In 1978 the Plymouth Fury A38 [Police Special] was the fastest car produced in North America, period."

BTW .. That was 133mph (down significantly from 147mph of the 1969 Dodge Polara) .. The 1978 Corvette was 127mph (Car and Driver, Jan 1979)

I think you must be confusing 4-wheel, coil sprung, all wheel drum, stockos with Mopars big-block police specials. Theres a reason why all you see in old Dukes of Hazzard and Blues Brothers are mopar police cars .. They OWNED the police market until 1978.

It's actually interesting talking about police cars as a muscle cars were mechanically based on a lot of "police" hardware. One of the best 60s police specials was the 1968 Plymouth Belvedere was basically a four-door Road Runner.

[Ben73]

Awesome pics z80. I am going to hire one of them when I go to the US one day. Just have to wait a few years until I am over 25 so I don't pay a ridiculous price.

[SSD-85]

My definition of muscle car is as follows:

A model that was built in basic spec, but offered performance-orientated options from factory.
With a "sports/super car" being a model that's only available as a "peformance orientated" vehicle.

Yes, I realise that would include many cars such as Minis. But you need to consider that eg: a Mini wouldve been one of the best "muscle" cars any relevant country may have offered.

However, this is merely my opinion. NOT gospel that im forcing others to believe.

[wrongwaynorris]

Corvettes are NOT muscle cars , especially the early ones before the Lotus powered ones . They were nothing but ugly overweight sludgeboxes , hell 99% of them were autos , they werent even sports cars as that is just a bridge too far , they were bought by the BCSD crowd .( Until the Lotus powered and suspended ones ) . Put them up against a Bolwell Nagari and they would not see the Bolwell for dust as it dissapered into the distance.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by z80

That may have been the case then...but Corvettes are the ducks' guts now and the definition of a 2012 muscle car.

Contradiction of terms right there.