Ford: Pontiac G8 failure spooked us

Road_Warrior · 04-10-2010, 02:49 PM

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...2577B200059E9A

Quote:

FORD admits that the failure of Holden’s VE Commodore-based Pontiac G8 in North America has been a psychological setback in the export of large rear-wheel drive sedans from Australia, as well as a lesson to be heeded in the future.

Speaking anonymously to GoAuto at the Paris show on September 30, a senior company executive revealed he was mystified that a car as impressive and critically acclaimed as the Pontiac G8 did not translate into sales.

“I was curiously surprised at how (the Pontiac) didn’t quite click in the US,” the Ford insider said.

“I was surprised because… it was such a great-looking car… and I thought it was just such a good idea.”

Asked if the Pontiac G8 experience is a setback for any future Falcon export opportunities to North America or any other overseas destination, the Ford man said it would certainly act as a warning not to be ignored.

“(Ford) does look at the whole picture – even though that was a very niche opportunity (for GM),” he said.

“You know (now-retired GM product manager and instigator of the G8 program) Bob Lutz normally had a great instinct for the right products for the right markets, and I am a Bob Lutz believer, so it’s just surprising that it didn’t click.

“But we will keep doing the right thing for (the development of the Falcon) in Australia because we have so many good people (at Broadmeadows).”

Built on the VE Commodore production line at Elizabeth in South Australia, Pontiac released the G8 in North America from December 2007, just as the global financial crisis was taking hold.

Only a little more than half of the 20,000 G8s expected to be sold in the first 12 months found homes, and by the beginning of 2009, with around 10,000 vehicles still sitting in holding yards across the US and GM’s Chapter 11 Bankruptcy looming, the G8 – along with Pontiac itself – was axed.

Along with the 3.6-litre High Feature V6 and 6.0-litre V8 sedan models, GM had planned to offer the G8 in ST utility guise, displaying a prototype at the 2008 New York International Auto Show, and there was even talk of Pontiac taking the Sportwagon variant.

Interestingly, the G8’s Holden Monaro-based GTO Coupe predecessor – another export from Elizabeth – also failed to meet initial volume expectations, although it did gain a stronger following to register more than 40,000 sales from 2004 to 2006.

Holden’s Zeta export program has since been revived with the recommencement of VE Commodore-based Chevrolet Omega sales to Brazil, while the WM Caprice-derived Police Pursuit Vehicle could be worth up to 60,000 exports annually for Holden starting from next year.

Interesting comments there. Whilst it would seem that all RWD roads will eventually lead to Rome, they won't at any cost.

RedHotGT · 04-10-2010, 02:50 PM

There was a number of stuff-ups with the G8 and the Pontiac GTO in the USA...

and sadly it didn't have much to do with the car...

it was all the logistics and poor marketing...
*(could sight numerous examples... if this thread fills out - i'll list them all)*

**Polyal** · 04-10-2010, 02:51 PM

Salt into wound.....check

Its all old news, but hey its about time some Holden bashing was made more public.

Chopped · 04-10-2010, 05:11 PM

In other words - They failed so we won't even try !

I suppose it kept Ford Aus in profit but where is the big picture stuff.

(G6ET would be a revelation over there IMO)

FPV GTHO · 04-10-2010, 06:00 PM

No exports doesnt mean no Falcons for the US though, and i think thats where Ford see a different approach to Holden.

chevypower · 04-10-2010, 06:30 PM

People thought of Pontiac as a cheap brand. Cheaper than Chevy I think. So a $30k Pontiac wasn't going to happen. It may work as a Chevy, it may not. Would a new $30k Chevy Caprice be a success? I'm not sure, I'd be scared off the idea too. RWD 4 door sedans just isn't a fail free formula in the US that it is in Australia. People who want to tow, use pickups and SUVs, and sportscars are two door RWD coupes. I think people generally want their sedans to be fuel efficient, and be practical for winter driving. In Australia, your Falcadore is your daily sedan, sports car and tow vehicle all in one! haha.

jpd80 · 04-10-2010, 06:52 PM

A case of the worst launch timing ever, GM never stood a chance with the G8 because the
Global Financial Crisis began in the USA all through 2008, claiming a lot of large financial
organizations and ultimately GM last year.

The G8 was a niche car and given any other economic climate it would have sold much
better, jobs and finance dried up so bad in every field that people were struggling to
keep their homes and cars were the last thing on their mind.

There probably is a case for Falcon in the USA provided that it and the Mustang share
drive train and electrical systems. The best time is probably straight after Holden gets its
ears boxed badly for a second time with the Caprice PPV.......

Jeddak · 05-10-2010, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevypower

People thought of Pontiac as a cheap brand. Cheaper than Chevy I think. So a $30k Pontiac wasn't going to happen. It may work as a Chevy, it may not. Would a new $30k Chevy Caprice be a success? I'm not sure, I'd be scared off the idea too. RWD 4 door sedans just isn't a fail free formula in the US that it is in Australia. People who want to tow, use pickups and SUVs, and sportscars are two door RWD coupes. I think people generally want their sedans to be fuel efficient, and be practical for winter driving. In Australia, your Falcadore is your daily sedan, sports car and tow vehicle all in one! haha.

Not so... Pontiac was more upmarket with Chevy the bottom brand.
it was Chevy,Pontiac ,Buick, Oldsmobile, Caddiliac.(with Buick and Olds the other way round maybe) Pontiac had the Judge and Firebird as hotties too dont forget
it is so though, that the market there is pickup driven ( look at the F truck)
and dont forget the ford capri...I believe if Ford US sold that little car as a Ford instead of a Mercury it would have done better ( Mercury is an" old guy "car brand and thus less tolerant of problems )

So I recon ( my opinion only of course) that GM US had only two choices
even though Olds and Buick had hotties at one time or another and that was Chevy or Pontiac . the market and the global money meltdown fixed that however

chevypower · 10-10-2010, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeddak

Not so... Pontiac was more upmarket with Chevy the bottom brand.

Meh, I don't know anyone who thinks of Pontiac as "upmarket," I think of old Bonnevilles, Grand Ams - pieces of crap like that. Trans Ams and Firebirds are long gone.
Chevy - if it's a truck it's respected, otherwise just an ordinary car. Except people think the Camaro is pretty cool. I can totally see why GM is ditching Pontiac. But I don't know why they are keeping GMC.

jpd80 · 10-10-2010, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevypower

Meh, I don't know anyone who thinks of Pontiac as "upmarket," I think of old Bonnevilles, Grand Ams - pieces of crap like that. Trans Ams and Firebirds are long gone.
Chevy - if it's a truck it's respected, otherwise just an ordinary car. Except people think the Camaro is pretty cool. I can totally see why GM is ditching Pontiac. But I don't know why they are keeping GMC.

Had the Calais and Caprice been sold as Buick Riveria (?) and Park Avenue,
they would have attracted a much more sympathetic group of buyers.

Once again, GM NA misread the market with G8 and Holden paid the price.

Brazen · 05-10-2010, 01:07 AM

I bloody hope Ford US, doesnt use the Pontiac G8 as an example, it was a very damaged brand used to selling to Barina (Aveo) copies at that stage. A US bound Falcon would sell up a storm in California and the mid west.

RedHotGT · 05-10-2010, 11:29 AM

One of the major failings of the Pontiac GTO was the fact that it was mostly Australian...
*Example* If they imported a car from the USA, and slapped GT-HO badges on it... would it be a sucess?? A car that has Australian heritage and bloodlines, now being imported from the states??? I think not... Same goes for the GTO...

Another thing was that the GTO coupe was released in the USA in 2006... The body design was first seen in Australia in 1999, and released in 2002... the car was already outdated the minute it rolled off the boat in the USA...

The G8 suffered the same fate... with the bad taste in the mouth of the USA buyers from the GTO... then we (aussies) try again??? I don't think it was the pricepoint that made the car not desirable... it was the other alternatives for the same cash that were more appealing (think Dodge Challenger)...

The fact that GM had about 10 brand names more than they needed... The fact that the GFC was crippling the US economy... The fact that fuel prices were shooting into the sky faster than a space shuttle... The list continues...

Personally I think its a bad idea at the moment...
But - to be fair... my knowledge of the US market isn't very good...
(and I feel that Ford and Holden have the same issue!!!)

Ohio XB · 05-10-2010, 12:07 PM

Loftie, I think you have a very good grip on what may have happened with the Holden ventures in the US.

To what you said I would like to add that when the GTO arrived it was slammed in many reviews (magazines, websites) for it's dated styling. Also, it was a "performance" car with no hood scoops, a feature the GTO was famous for. It was fast and handled great but people did not want a bland looking car.

A lot of people bought one because it was a GTO; a novelty. The G8 looked pretty modern. I would guess the economy was the nail in the coffin for it.

Now, as far as a "senior company executive" from Ford making such statements about GM, Holden, and their failures, I am not saying it is impossible but just look at every interview where a reporter tries to coax or prod Mulally into critisizing or gloating over GM's and Chrysler's problems. He NEVER says one word about it. When asked about GM and Chrysler issues Mulally just says "Well, at Ford we've got some wonderful products coming out right now that are the best we've ever produced and that people will love." He has never commented on their problems, shortfalls, or anything else. I suspect he expects the same out of his executives, and he has fired executives on the spot.

Steve

irlewy86 · 05-10-2010, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loftie

Another thing was that the GTO coupe was released in the USA in 2006... The body design was first seen in Australia in 1999, and released in 2002... the car was already outdated the minute it rolled off the boat in the USA...

Wasn't the VT mostly styled from a mid 90's Opel anyway?

RedHotGT · 05-10-2010, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irlewy86

Wasn't the VT mostly styled from a mid 90's Opel anyway?

Infact the VT was the most "Australian" of the commodores for some time...

Every commodore before it was based on a european version...
http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11292985

aussie muscle · 05-10-2010, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Only a little more than half of the 20,000 G8s expected to be sold in the first 12 months

I'm sure Ford Australia would LOVE to sell an additional 10,000 falcons a year. that's a niche product in NA, but a major upscale for AU. so, it's not like Ford NA couldn't allow it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by loftie

One of the major failings of the Pontiac GTO was the fact that it was mostly Australian...

i'm sure i read on a few american forums that australia *copied* their design

irlewy86 · 05-10-2010, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aussie muscle

I'm sure Ford Australia would LOVE to sell an additional 10,000 falcons a year. that's a niche product in NA, but a major upscale for AU. so, it's not like Ford NA couldn't allow it.

i'm sure i read on a few american forums that australia *copied* their design

$150 million for LHD (unknown how much the fedral government will chip in)
Plus there has to be the turnover worth putting it on dealer lots (marketing, parts back-up, training etc) So they'd probably want to push it way up market if only 10,000 year were going there.

Paxton · 05-10-2010, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irlewy86

$150 million for LHD (unknown how much the fedral government will chip in)
Plus there has to be the turnover worth putting it on dealer lots (marketing, parts back-up, training etc) So they'd probably want to push it way up market if only 10,000 year were going there.

With the Australian dollar almost at parity with the US$, don't hold your breath. Holden must be feeling the pinch with the Cruze and the Police car now...

outback_ute · 05-10-2010, 05:44 PM

Does anyone else find it ironic that at the bottom of the article they still push the "but they could export 60k police cars" barrow. Then again they were originally saying 70k...

XRtowcar · 05-10-2010, 06:41 PM

Just back from Europe and reckon that Falcon with the 2 Litre turbo would be a good niche seller in Germany.
Germans drive a lot of large cars.
Lot more than i thought they would.
Plenty of E and S class Benzs and X6 Bmws.
Have to get there heads around a large Ford sedan in Europe though.

b0son · 05-10-2010, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRtowcar

Plenty of E and S class Benzs and X6 Bmws.
Have to get there heads around a large Ford sedan in Europe though.

Not going to happen. Yes, the Falcon nowadays is a much better car relatively speaking, but it still has some way to go to compete with a Merc/BMW.

XRtowcar · 05-10-2010, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

Not going to happen. Yes, the Falcon nowadays is a much better car relatively speaking, but it still has some way to go to compete with a Merc/BMW.

Would have to succeed on price as even a base E class starts at 41000 Euro.
Should be able to sneak a Falcon for around 32000 Euro.
Wont happen as Ford have the wind up them after the G8, and it would compete against the Mondeo.
Then again "One Ford" may change things.
Thats if the Falcon still exists.

Road_Warrior · 05-10-2010, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRtowcar

Would have to succeed on price as even a base E class starts at 41000 Euro.
Should be able to sneak a Falcon for around 32000 Euro.
Wont happen as Ford have the wind up them after the G8, and it would compete against the Mondeo.
Then again "One Ford" may change things.
Thats if the Falcon still exists.

Yeah but what he means I think is that Falcon has a long way to go (in its current form) to compete on level terms with BMW/Merc with features, build quality, fit and finish, NVH etc. This all means a big dollar spend on a new platform which is where the reborn Global Rear Wheel Drive project comes into it.

XRtowcar · 05-10-2010, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Yeah but what he means I think is that Falcon has a long way to go (in its current form) to compete on level terms with BMW/Merc with features, build quality, fit and finish, NVH etc. This all means a big dollar spend on a new platform which is where the reborn Global Rear Wheel Drive project comes into it.

Dosen't have to equal quality or features if your price is 25% lower then your segment competition.
Selling on price not features.

flappist · 05-10-2010, 10:04 PM

I think it is because of their "don't ask/don't tell" policy.

Driving a left hand drive commodore with the "ugly stick" pack is a bit of a give away.....

**ebxr8240** · 05-10-2010, 11:38 PM

The GTO was shunned by Chevy other G.M brands... Only Pontiac dealers hardly advertised them...My brother bought a GTO new for $25k ...
Most people there don't know what it is ...To me it is somewhat poverty pack with small brakes and as said no hood scoops on first model ...

Jesmol · 09-10-2010, 01:23 PM

I got some interesting info on the G8 failures yesterday. The car was apparently a BIG failure from a quality and reliability point of view.

over 12,000 of them were reworked on the docks at port of entry.

2 Safety / Complaince campaigns (equivalent of a recall)

7 "Customer Satifaction" campaigns.

It was rated as the lowest car on the JD Powers quality list.

Holden are very concerned about their percieved quality level within GM and are working hard to lift it.

bobthebilda · 09-10-2010, 09:48 PM

Quote:

For Ford, though, the “Crown Vic” lost its commercial appeal a long time ago. Built in St. Thomas, Ont., the car has been relegated to police and taxi fleets since 2007 after Ford decided the consumer market for big, rear-wheel-drive sedans had all but disappeared, save for a handful of Florida retirees. Even taxi companies are moving away to smaller and more fuel-efficient cars. And police departments, although important and high-profile customers, only buy about 60,000 of the roughly $30,000 vehicles a year in total—not enough to justify a dedicated assembly line.

Does make you wonder why Holden are trying to repeat the process. They couldnt make money selling a VE to the americans at $35000 (when aussie was 70 cents to $US), but are now trying to sell a Caprice to them for $30,000 (when aussie is at Parity).

You have to wonder who is more stupid, those americans with 10% unemployment (and laying off police officers), to buy imported Police cars, or those Australian taxpayers who are subsidising an American company to send cars to america at below cost price.

SteveJH · 09-10-2010, 10:53 PM

Regarding the Crown Victoria, it probably didn't help that the model was first introduced in 1998 either.

Meanwhile Chrysler have the 300C, Dodge have the Charger, Cadillac have the CTS. So there must be a market there somewhere.

Ohio XB · 10-10-2010, 05:00 PM

The most recent body style dates to 1998, but it got a new chassis in 2003. The Crown Victoria name was used exclusively as the model of the car since 1992. Previous to that the car was called an "LTD" (L-T-D), and Crown Victoria was the upscale package that you could get on the car. However, the Panther Platform has been around since 1979. It is truely a dinosaur in a modern world. To put that into perspective, that was 4 years before I graduated from high school, and I am 46 years old now.

I would think the weight and the styling of the car, or lack thereof, is the reason it didn't sell retail very well anymore. It is an "old man's" car and not very appealing. It was allowed to rot on the vine.

If Ford wants to say there isn't much demand for rear wheel drive, full sized cars based on the lack of sales of this boat anchor, that is a sorry measuring stick.

Quote:

You have to wonder who is more stupid, those americans with 10% unemployment (and laying off police officers), to buy imported Police cars, or those Australian taxpayers who are subsidising an American company to send cars to america at below cost price.

"Who's more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him?"

Steve