diesel falcon

[Bolly47]

Did Ford Australia built couple of ford falcon with fitted secretly fit with 4 cylinders or V6 diesel engine as experiment some where in 2007-9 can anyone can confirm if is true or not

[FairmontGS]

https://performancedrive.com.au/top-...programs-1901/

[Vesper Martini]

At the time this is what Ford Ford Thought:

"There isn't the same strong customer need and want -- and it's not on the radar of customers who are really asking us about what they want from Falcon in the future. A diesel powertrain is not top of people's lists for a large sedan, it is for a medium SUV."

Instead they made Falcons with EcoBoost and LPI LPG system

https://www.carsales.com.au/editoria...-diesel-19683/

[Swordie]

I thought EcoBoost had a strong influence from the Rudd Government. I think they provided subsidies for Ford to introduce the EcoBoost.

Consumer demand was a strong driver of demand for diesel Territorys. There was allot demand fo Territorys.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Swordie

I thought EcoBoost had a strong influence from the Rudd Government. I think they provided subsidies for Ford to introduce the EcoBoost.

Consumer demand was a strong driver of demand for diesel Territorys. There was allot demand fo Territorys.

From memory $40M to both manufacturers under some 'green local car' incentive.

Holden turned on flex fuel and Ford put the Ecoboost in the Falcon.

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

From memory $40M to both manufacturers under some 'green local car' incentive.

Holden turned on flex fuel and Ford put the Ecoboost in the Falcon.

And what a rort that was! In no way did it cost Ford and GM $40M for those two programs, a large percentage of that money would have simply flowed back to Detroit.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that Ford and Holden at the time were trying new things to keep buyer interest, and the flow on to the jobs it would in theory have maintained. And I know developing even small changes is expensive. But, the Flex fuel stuff already existed on GM powertrains, all they did was add the parts to Holden spec engines and cars. The EcoBoost engine was already earmarked for RWD platforms at Jaguar, with ZF gearboxes, so the cost of development would have centered around calibration and crash testing.

A lot of creative bookkeeping went on during that whole era.

[DFB FGXR6]

Also, a diesel Falcon made no sense........in the sedan anyway.

Falcon sedan was a fleet whore, where the cheapest overall cost was key. An expensive diesel engine did not factor. Also, the torque of the I6, in petrol or LPG, was already diesel like. The sedan was otherwise bought at the top end via the XR and FPV lines, as in high performance engines. A diesel is not that.

On the Ute though, perhaps diesel would have been a good idea. But then again, the market was changing away from single cab Utes, a diesel engine would have simply taken away from the more profitable I6 engine sales.

Although it would have been an interesting idea, Ford were already very generous with the variety of powertrains they offered on Falcon. At one point they offered all of the following -

Ecoboost 4 cylinder (Auto)

I6 Petrol 6 cylinder (Man or Auto)
I6 LPG 6 cylinder (Auto)
I6 Turbo 270 (Man or Auto)
I6 Turbo 310 (Man or Auto)

5.0 V8 315 (Man or Auto)
5.0 V8 335 (Man or Auto)

That's 12 different powertrain variations on a vehicle who's sales were nosediving at the time.

A diesel too? Where would it have fitted?

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

Also, a diesel Falcon made no sense........in the sedan anyway.

Falcon sedan was a fleet whore, where the cheapest overall cost was key. An expensive diesel engine did not factor. Also, the torque of the I6, in petrol or LPG, was already diesel like. The sedan was otherwise bought at the top end via the XR and FPV lines, as in high performance engines. A diesel is not that.

On the Ute though, perhaps diesel would have been a good idea. But then again, the market was changing away from single cab Utes, a diesel engine would have simply taken away from the more profitable I6 engine sales.

Although it would have been an interesting idea, Ford were already very generous with the variety of powertrains they offered on Falcon. At one point they offered all of the following -

Ecoboost 4 cylinder (Auto)

I6 Petrol 6 cylinder (Man or Auto)
I6 LPG 6 cylinder (Auto)
I6 Turbo 270 (Man or Auto)
I6 Turbo 310 (Man or Auto)

5.0 V8 315 (Man or Auto)
5.0 V8 335 (Man or Auto)

That's 12 different powertrain variations on a vehicle who's sales were nosediving at the time.

A diesel too? Where would it have fitted?

IMO, a TDI falcon would have been good for the country folk as diesel supply is more consistent.

Also I believe the fuel consumption would have been better for a daily than the I6...the I6 drinks like a fish around town. Hence why it would popular in the Territory.

I dont have the sale numbers but it would be interesting to see how many petrol vs diesel Territory's were sold once TDI was available.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

Also, a diesel Falcon made no sense........in the sedan anyway.

Falcon sedan was a fleet whore, where the cheapest overall cost was key. An expensive diesel engine did not factor. Also, the torque of the I6, in petrol or LPG, was already diesel like. The sedan was otherwise bought at the top end via the XR and FPV lines, as in high performance engines. A diesel is not that.

On the Ute though, perhaps diesel would have been a good idea. But then again, the market was changing away from single cab Utes, a diesel engine would have simply taken away from the more profitable I6 engine sales.

Although it would have been an interesting idea, Ford were already very generous with the variety of powertrains they offered on Falcon. At one point they offered all of the following -

Ecoboost 4 cylinder (Auto)

I6 Petrol 6 cylinder (Man or Auto)
I6 LPG 6 cylinder (Auto)
I6 Turbo 270 (Man or Auto)
I6 Turbo 310 (Man or Auto)

5.0 V8 315 (Man or Auto)
5.0 V8 335 (Man or Auto)

That's 12 different powertrain variations on a vehicle who's sales were nosediving at the time.

A diesel too? Where would it have fitted?

From the article I posted the Diesel would have had to be "instead of" which would have meant closing down production of the Barra & Geelong engine plant..
Imagine that

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

And what a rort that was! In no way did it cost Ford and GM $40M for those two programs, a large percentage of that money would have simply flowed back to Detroit.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that Ford and Holden at the time were trying new things to keep buyer interest, and the flow on to the jobs it would in theory have maintained. And I know developing even small changes is expensive. But, the Flex fuel stuff already existed on GM powertrains, all they did was add the parts to Holden spec engines and cars. The EcoBoost engine was already earmarked for RWD platforms at Jaguar, with ZF gearboxes, so the cost of development would have centered around calibration and crash testing.

A lot of creative bookkeeping went on during that whole era.

I can see that making sense for Holden, all they did was tune their engines for E85 and emissions test it. Which would have been easy to get a pass from. Fairly simple.

But adding a new powertrain isn't a cheap exercise. You have to make it fit, then do all the calibration work on it, emissions testing, and then crash testing, which alone runs into the millions of dollars. Then you have to worry about NVH, which being a direct injection engine actually required a fair bit of work due to the diesel like noise from the injectors, and then you have dynamic work to be done due to the lighter engine sitting further back over the front wheels, then ABS/DSC recalibration and durability testing. $40 million easily in all that. Quite a lot of work.

Holden didn't even have to do half of that.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I can see that making sense for Holden, all they did was tune their engines for E85 and emissions test it. Which would have been easy to get a pass from. Fairly simple.

But adding a new powertrain isn't a cheap exercise. You have to make it fit, then do all the calibration work on it, emissions testing, and then crash testing, which alone runs into the millions of dollars. Then you have to worry about NVH, which being a direct injection engine actually required a fair bit of work due to the diesel like noise from the injectors, and then you have dynamic work to be done due to the lighter engine sitting further back over the front wheels, then ABS/DSC recalibration and durability testing. $40 million easily in all that. Quite a lot of work.

Holden didn't even have to do half of that.

Nonsense! Holden introduced entirely new engines with direct injection. E85 or not, the new engines were far more fuel efficient.

New transmissions, new diff ratios, new exhaust & mounts, extra noise insulation. Direct injection engines are noisy like Diesels.

Dr Terry

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

And what a rort that was! In no way did it cost Ford and GM $40M for those two programs, a large percentage of that money would have simply flowed back to Detroit.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that Ford and Holden at the time were trying new things to keep buyer interest, and the flow on to the jobs it would in theory have maintained. And I know developing even small changes is expensive. But, the Flex fuel stuff already existed on GM powertrains, all they did was add the parts to Holden spec engines and cars. The EcoBoost engine was already earmarked for RWD platforms at Jaguar, with ZF gearboxes, so the cost of development would have centered around calibration and crash testing.

A lot of creative bookkeeping went on during that whole era.

They did the 4cyl Falcon because they were assured by the Government that their fleets would purchase it as they had a 4cyl only policy.
The sales never eventuated.
They all bought 4cyl suvs instead, and Territory didn't get a look in because despite being Australian, wasn't 4cyl.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

And what a rort that was! In no way did it cost Ford and GM $40M for those two programs, a large percentage of that money would have simply flowed back to Detroit.

A lot of creative bookkeeping went on during that whole era.

An even larger percentage went to some of the overpaid workers sat the time.

Don't get me wrong, not all of the workers were overpaid, but many had trouble adjusting to more realistic wages after he factory closed down.

The simple fact was that the Australian automotive industry was totally uncompetitive in that era. Both Ford & GMH needed that money big time.

Dr Terry

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

An even larger percentage went to some of the overpaid workers sat the time.

Don't get me wrong, not all of the workers were overpaid, but many had trouble adjusting to more realistic wages after he factory closed down.

The simple fact was that the Australian automotive industry was totally uncompetitive in that era. Both Ford & GMH needed that money big time.

Dr Terry

Unless they're paying paid a bowl of rice a month, you will never compete with labour costs of Thailand, end of story.

Curious to what the guys who worked on the production line were paid, do we have any Ford Australia employees who worked in non skilled labour roles with Ford Australia? What were you getting paid if you don't mind divulging.

The irony is Chinese labour is now more expensive than Mexican labour, which has higher skills and is cheaper.

[arm79]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

From memory $40M to both manufacturers under some 'green local car' incentive.

Holden turned on flex fuel and Ford put the Ecoboost in the Falcon.

If I remember correctly KRudds Green Car Innovation Fund had a $200m pot. And the funds expired if projects weren't completed by a particular date/timeframe or within narrow scope.

Holden got $140m and put in the Cruze assembly line, Ford got $40m for the Ecoboost and Territory and Toyota got the rest to install a Hybrid Camry or Prius line.

I think thats how it went. But yes, I realise there was other little things with the cash too. Its just the big projects that stand out.

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I reckon the biggest travesty was the work done to put the diesel in the Territory in the early 00s, then the clown they had as a CEO pulled the rug out at the last second.

A massive mistake for the Territory as without the diesel it sealed its fate too early. They lost big in the market place, lost the advantage and momentum.

But the big reason they ignored the Territory is because Ford Aus had engineering lead on the new Ranger, as we know it now, at that time. They were responsible for developing a world market vehicle and Territory didn't get a look in until that was all over.

Originally Posted by XR Martin

They did the 4cyl Falcon because they were assured by the Government that their fleets would purchase it as they had a 4cyl only policy.
The sales never eventuated.
They all bought 4cyl suvs instead, and Territory didn't get a look in because despite being Australian, wasn't 4cyl.

Yep, they ****ed them over good by not keeping their promise.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Polyal

IMO, a TDI falcon would have been good for the country folk as diesel supply is more consistent.

Also I believe the fuel consumption would have been better for a daily than the I6...the I6 drinks like a fish around town. Hence why it would popular in the Territory.

I dont have the sale numbers but it would be interesting to see how many petrol vs diesel Territory's were sold once TDI was available.

It's not a straight comparison as they limited the petrol to RWD versions didn't they? No option for petrol AWD?

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

Personally I would have purchased a diesel Falcon over the petrol based on my own experiences with territory.
bugger all Petrol Territory's were sold towards the end, I think they cost around 2 grand more for the Diesel too

To compare for the Falcon an 08 XF Jag with the same 2.7 diesel delivers 7.5L/100 average

Are you sure that's right? I thought the diesel was more expensive?

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

That would have been Tom Gorman.......



Gorman rode on the tails of success setup by Geoff Polites. As the freshness of the BA Falcon started to wane and sales begun to taper then fall, he copped the blame.

At the end of the day, his ability to manage Ford Australia ended up in the hands of the US executives, he was simply the puppet tasked with acting out their directives.

It's telling that, like many before and after him, Gormon left the Ford Motor Company after his stint in Australia.

Ended up CEO of Brambles if I remember right.

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

Nonsense! Holden introduced entirely new engines with direct injection. E85 or not, the new engines were far more fuel efficient.

New transmissions, new diff ratios, new exhaust & mounts, extra noise insulation. Direct injection engines are noisy like Diesels.

Dr Terry

LOL. They were just upgraded versions of what they had. Especially the V8. And they were pretty much a straight fitment swap, next to nothing involved in fitting them. Unlike the 4 cylinder in Falcon. DI noise I mentioned in my previous post, so yes, it would have required a little NVH tweek.

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Unless they're paying paid a bowl of rice a month, you will never compete with labour costs of Thailand, end of story.

Curious to what the guys who worked on the production line were paid, do we have any Ford Australia employees who worked in non skilled labour roles with Ford Australia? What were you getting paid if you don't mind divulging.

The irony is Chinese labour is now more expensive than Mexican labour, which has higher skills and is cheaper.

Vietnam and Cambodia the new China. Lots of work shifting there.

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

I'm not talking about the old "bowl of rice" workers in Asia.

I don't know real up to date figures, but I'm willing to bet that the average "unskilled" production line worker in the USA (read UAW member) earned substantially less than those on the Aussie production line.

Dr Terry

Legacy UAW workers, which I think new hires become after 7 years I think, were/are higher paid than us. Only new hires make less. The whole wages thing is a joke anyway, because the union looked into it and our wages were comparable with the US, UK, Germany and South Korea.

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

The Median wage in Australia is $1250/week:



https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/la...nings/aug-2022

I spoke to someone who works as one of the entry level managers at Safeway and she was 24 and on $75K, albeit salary - thats above the median wage the ABS quotes.

Curious to see what these supposed wages everyone was crowing on about at Ford/Holden for the production line employees, lets see some actual numbers, I highly doubt they were on 6 figures.

None were on 6 figures working a 40 hr week that's for damn sure. Can't remember what it would have been like back then though, it was 7 years ago. Maybe 60K? Anyone who thinks they were making anywhere near 100k has rocks in their head. Only way to get that would be shed loads of overtime worked, and overtime was a dirty word in the last 10 years of manufacturing, because it simply wasn't needed as sales were tanking, so it was very hard to come by.

Even now, base wages for trades in PD isn't that close to 100k. Maybe 85? Plenty of overtime for some areas though, so can easily push that up.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

None were on 6 figures working a 40 hr week that's for damn sure. Can't remember what it would have been like back then though, it was 7 years ago. Maybe 60K? Anyone who thinks they were making anywhere near 100k has rocks in their head. Only way to get that would be shed loads of overtime worked, and overtime was a dirty word in the last 10 years of manufacturing, because it simply wasn't needed as sales were tanking, so it was very hard to come by.

Even now, base wages for trades in PD isn't that close to 100k. Maybe 85? Plenty of overtime for some areas though, so can easily push that up.

Yep, so its no way near as blown out as its made to be when people start pointing fingers at the guys on the production floor putting these things together, as much as I suspected

Its a convenient excuse though, throw **** at the guy on the bottom and make it out like its their fault, meanwhile the guy steering the ship makes ****ty decisions, leaves and gets paid out for their deeds - Tom Gorman and the diesel Territory, bringing it back on topic

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

It's not a straight comparison as they limited the petrol to RWD versions didn't they? No option for petrol AWD?

Yep, that's why I didn't buy two more Territories after 2007. Put the funds into the house which I hated at the time, but that paid off big.

[Polyal]

I remember crowing on about it as the time, car made sense to me (much like 5 series and E series TDi).

Would have been able to not bother with ecoboost which never really took off and gas just never got their no matter how low the running costs are. Diesel is plentiful, people are familiar with it etc.

Would love a FGX G6 TDI for a daily.

[Bossxr8]

I would not be surprised if they had a few 2.7 TDV6 FG mules running around. They trial things like this from time to time.

[Franco Cozzo]

I reckon the biggest travesty was the work done to put the diesel in the Territory in the early 00s, then the clown they had as a CEO pulled the rug out at the last second.

Then by the time the diesel engine went back into the Territory it ended up with some thousand year old JLR diesel version of the 3.8L Buick

140KW/440NM or something which is a **** to drive because of the torque tags, nothing nothing nothing nothing nothing then everything at the roundabout.

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I reckon the biggest travesty was the work done to put the diesel in the Territory in the early 00s, then the clown they had as a CEO pulled the rug out at the last second.

Then by the time the diesel engine went back into the Territory it ended up with some thousand year old JLR diesel version of the 3.8L Buick

140KW/440NM or something which is a **** to drive because of the torque tags, nothing nothing nothing nothing nothing then everything at the roundabout.

That would have been Tom Gorman.......



Gorman rode on the tails of success setup by Geoff Polites. As the freshness of the BA Falcon started to wane and sales begun to taper then fall, he copped the blame.

At the end of the day, his ability to manage Ford Australia ended up in the hands of the US executives, he was simply the puppet tasked with acting out their directives.

It's telling that, like many before and after him, Gormon left the Ford Motor Company after his stint in Australia.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

140KW/440NM or something which is a **** to drive because of the torque tags, nothing nothing nothing nothing nothing then everything at the roundabout.

That’s still comparable to most of the over priced Thai specials 15 years on.

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by smoo

That’s still comparable to most of the over priced Thai specials 15 years on.

Not to mention the lovely 70-Series Landcruiser V8!

[whynot]

I would be interested in hearing from ex-Taxi drivers their views on a diesel taxi. Around that time, they were the prime buyers of ex-Gov vehicles. Also in that time window, most Gov and Council fleets were just starting to move away from Falcon and Commodore due to fuel star ratings. So, would be interested if the Taxi industry would prefer diesel or LPG to go with their Falcon wagon with vinyl seats.

A few weeks ago I stumbled across a review of an old Territory on ReDriven and was surprised at the scathing remarks about the reliability of the diesel engine verse how good the Barra was. Accepting this as true, would the Taxi industry stay away from the diesel once the word had gotten out?

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by whynot

I would be interested in hearing from ex-Taxi drivers their views on a diesel taxi. Around that time, they were the prime buyers of ex-Gov vehicles. Also in that time window, most Gov and Council fleets were just starting to move away from Falcon and Commodore due to fuel star ratings. So, would be interested if the Taxi industry would prefer diesel or LPG to go with their Falcon wagon with vinyl seats.

A few weeks ago I stumbled across a review of an old Territory on ReDriven and was surprised at the scathing remarks about the reliability of the diesel engine verse how good the Barra was. Accepting this as true, would the Taxi industry stay away from the diesel once the word had gotten out?

To be fair the taxi industry only bought 2nd hand & historically use their own back yard mechanics fitting old mixer LPG systems instead of more modern systems. So I don't think Ford would ever factor them in when they manufactured a new car.
But if there were 2nd hand diesel sedans available then yes the taxi industry would gobble them up just like they use diesels in every other country.
its just that we have none to choose from...
re the Redriven review its only HP fuel pumps & a belt change that forms the basis of his opinion. & the Pump is not the engines fault.

[roKWiz]

Did somebody say diesel Falcon.



Popular taxi conversion back in the X series days.



Will go this route with the panel van on bio diesel when the crossflow finally gives up the ghost.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Did somebody say diesel Falcon.



Popular taxi conversion back in the X series days.

image

Will go this route with the panel van on bio diesel when the crossflow finally gives up the ghost.

Goes better than my mates old VK Commo with an LD28 in it.
I think he paid $1500 for it back in 2010. The rear screen louvres is probably worth that alone these days.



Does the Toyota 1hdt fit in an X series or has anyone done it? That will give it some balls comparable to the crossflow.

[Techno]

I laugh at people who buy 4wd and never use them for there intended purpose

[Citroënbender]

What - don’t use them for shopping, school pick-ups and coffee dates? :p